Unpopular Sonic Opinions

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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby FancyFool » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:27 pm

Mordum wrote:Every single character should be judged based on his (but not her) relationship to Cream.

:(hearty laughter): I guess I deserve that haha That is assuming that was a joke on me disliking Sally in part because of her sidelining Cream

I'll admit, I'm surprised this hasn't become an instant hot topic given that I just voiced a major dislike for Sally on a forum that largely adores her. Seriously, where's the refuting of the argument and/or sending me death threats?
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Penguin God » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:38 pm

Sally Acorn being a character people have problems with isn't anything new. You've got a hyper-focus on Cream, but other people without that perspective have noted a lot of the same issues.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby FancyFool » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:57 pm

Penguin God wrote:Sally Acorn being a character people have problems with isn't anything new. You've got a hyper-focus on Cream, but other people without that perspective have noted a lot of the same issues.

Aw man! To think I was worried like mad when deciding to post that here and it turns out to not be a big deal. :(hearty laughter): Well, at least I got to voice my thoughts on her cause they were really lingering as of late.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Specs64z » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:28 pm

My two cents:
Finitevus: Awesome. One of my favorite villains of all time for almost no reason other he looks cool (way past, even) and his powers are beyond epic. Dark magic? Teleportation? Fetish for total destruction? Slayed (well, banished would be more appropriate... but still!) the brotherhood? Dat. Cape. Doh?! Perfect sounding headcanon voice? Sign me up!

Cream: I dunno. I'm pretty indifferent. Though, considering the already crowded cast... she wouldn't exactly be at the top of my list for "needs more screen time/devolopment" sry m8 :/

Sally: Meh. Pre-reboot Sally was about as smart as a rock (apologies in advance), and her character was so convoluted I honestly couldn't tell how she was meant to be written until Ian took over. Even that had a few blips. Post-reboot is certainly better, but... just meh.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby SonicWindAttack » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:35 pm

Kureejii Lea wrote:
SonicWindAttack wrote: she shouts "Let freedom ring!" in the same breath as saying she wants to roboticize an unconscious Knuckles.


I'm sorry, I know this is literally what happens but phrasing it this bluntly makes it hilarious.

Plus, she's allowed to keep secrets like her past with Knuckles


...until she gets mad at him for "keeping secrets."

About things he didn't have any clue about to begin with.

...yeah, I probably shouldn't get started here. Sorry. :P

I realize that probably wasn't the best example, but I can't help but feel that Sally would be angry at Sonic if he kept a similar secret from her.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Kureejii Lea » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:25 pm

SonicWindAttack wrote:
Kureejii Lea wrote:
SonicWindAttack wrote: she shouts "Let freedom ring!" in the same breath as saying she wants to roboticize an unconscious Knuckles.


I'm sorry, I know this is literally what happens but phrasing it this bluntly makes it hilarious.

Plus, she's allowed to keep secrets like her past with Knuckles


...until she gets mad at him for "keeping secrets."

About things he didn't have any clue about to begin with.

...yeah, I probably shouldn't get started here. Sorry. :P

I realize that probably wasn't the best example, but I can't help but feel that Sally would be angry at Sonic if he kept a similar secret from her.


I'm not disagreeing with that, per se. I'm just pointing out that Sally at that point apparently saw nothing wrong with keeping her past with Knuckles a secret (because... drama?), but she later she did get super mad at Knuckles himself for keeping secrets from her, even though he was kept in the dark as well. Though there was a lot of that going around back then, people keeping secrets for some vague greater good or something even when it ultimately didn't pan out in any logical sense (while I could be forgetting details, I never really got why Merlin Prower felt the need to be completely distanced from his orphaned nephew to the point of having to create some elaborate ruse just to send him a gift).
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby DudestofGuys » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:51 pm

Something something Ancient Walkers something something destiny.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby ToaArcan » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:53 pm

DudestofGuys wrote:Something something Ancient Walkers something something destiny.


Something something Chosen One something Great Harmony something something actually he's just an Emerald magnet something.


Supposedly smart characters being dumb as rocks isn't exactly a new phenomenon in the Sonic franchise. Eggman pretty much holds the patent on the @#$%-Me Light, after all.

It's especially a flaw in the comic where both sides have to do silly things to avoid the conflict being resolved in two seconds because the two faction leaders (Sally and Eggman) really should be too smart to not try something more than breaking each others' toys. The funniest one is without a doubt 177, where, IIRC, the FF have Eggman pretty much dead-to-rights after beating his Plot Armour, and then Nicole tells him to leave. And the FF stand there while he scarpers. Even though she just warped Mogul into her freshly-built prison. I mena, he was outside the city and she couldn't do her teleporting thing unless he was within the city limits, but they really could've bonked him on the head and dragged him inside

In a lot of cases, stupidity has to be chalked up to "Because the plot", and that's an issue that's common across the entire entertainment industry. In order for a story to move forward, the writers often have to sacrifice the character's logic. It's things like "How do Clark Kent's glasses fool anyone" or "Why has nobody just killed the Joker". Unless the result is a bad story, it's normally forgivable from an external viewpoint, but why it works at all in-universe is a little hair-pulling.


Also, pretty sure that disliking Sally isn't exactly unpopular. She gets plenty of flak from Sonic fans, though a lot of it boils down to "Muh SEGA" or "Muh Sonamy" or claims of her being Mary Sue which show a complete lack of knowledge on what a Mary Sue is (Here's a hint: They only exist in fanfiction, and they're wish-fulfillment for the author. Unless the non-Bollers writers of the Sonic comics all have fantasies about being a naked squirrel woman and dating a freakish hedgehog-thing with attitude problems, Sally isn't a Sue by any stretch of the word) and picking it apart is actually rather fun.


With regards to the Cream thing, you do realise that a lot her feats are of dubious canonicity, right? Sure, she has those abilities when you play as her... but canonically, Sonic saves the day in Advance 2. Sonic, Tails, and Eggman save the day in Advance 3. Her role in Battle is... negligible. The only one that definitely happened is Sonic Heroes, where her abilities are nothing special, and are something Sally hasn't witnessed. I can't fathom wanting to dislike Sally for actually being rational in this situation. Take a step back and ask if "Letting the six-year-old that doesn't like fighting into a warzone because she can throw small animals real good" seems like something Sally would codone. Or Vanilla, for that matter. Or... just about anyone, really.


Considering that my opinions have been a little more... incendiary (It's rather amusing that disliking Sally in general is more acceptable than liking Fiona as an antihero- Not complaining, I love a good internet argument, simply observing) and the good ship BK Forums is sinking, I suppose I should get this one out: I can't stand Amy Rose in anything except the Adventure games and STC.

I was first introduced to her through Sonic X (I was not yet old and wise enough to NOPE away from that show), and the first impression did little to, well, impress. She was this shrill, violent, clingy berk that did nothing but fawn over Sonic. Of course, at the time, I was eight, and was in the mindsight that girls were icky, pink was the worst colour ever, and love was gross, so that didn't do her any favours.

That said, unlike other characters that I disliked as a kid, like Antoine, the Chaotix, etc, Amy never grew on me as I matured. Mainly because, while I now understood that girls are not icky, pink is not the worst colour ever, and love is totes cool even if it's not for me (And I will still write mush myself), I still do not like shrill, violent, clingy berks that do nothing but fawn over someone else. As I learned about more Sonic material thanks to the Internet, I got to experience things like Sonic Heroes' boss battle between her and Sonic, or her willingness to doom the world to be with Sonic in 06, or her attacking people with a hammer at the slightest provocation.

Now, I mentioned that I like her in the Adventure games, and that's because SA1 has her as a lot less clingy and irritating and has her go through and arc, which sticks in SA2. I liked her STC as well, but she's pretty much a different character there so some people say it doesn't count. I had a little hope for her in Archie after 222 showed her being mature, but then eight issues later, Sally became the world's blandest robot, and Amy attached to Sonic like a limpet.

Post reboot didn't help her at all. I really disliked that Blaze got reduced to a damsel for Amy to save in her own story. They took one of the best female characters in the franchise and reduced her to needing to be rescued by the series' perennial damsel in distress. Then I went into 256, fully aware that Sonic and Sally's reunion was going to be their last hurrah as a couple unless Ian changed his mind about romance or another writer decided to do a hookup for a Valentine's special or something, and then it happened, it was sweet... and it was cut short because Amy needed attention. So that was two things I really wanted to see and enjoy getting shafted for Amy's sake.

She went on to be a major player in almost every arc up to WU, and the plots kept grinding to a halt so the story could remind us that she was super-special-amazing, the worst offender being when the scene literally stopped so we could have a panel of her explaining the Mystic Melody again, which brings me to her role in Waves of Change, which was the arc where it went from "Minor irritance, probably just SEGA meddling" to "This is actually annoying me now". We have a battle with the Dark Guardian, likely the only time it will appear in the comic, and one of the three elemental bosses in Unleashed (The Gaia bosses use Fire, Ice, and Lightning, the traditional JRPG elements), and even Chaos showing up... but the comic keeps cutting back to Amy bashing random monsters and thinking about Sonic. And then to top it off, she learns the Mystic Melody overnight! This thing apparently warrants Pearly practicing it constantly for a long time, and she can't pull it off, but then Amy magically learns it immediately. Her absence since WU has been a welcome breath of fresh air, even if it did give us more Big.


The final issue I have is with the Sonamy pairing itself. Now, even when I was a kid, this always seemed off to me. Sonic's girlfriend of the week in AoSTH? Eh, whatever. Sonic and Sally necking after pretty much every mission in SatAM? I shared Tails' reaction at worst. Amy chasing Sonic? Bothered me. I was never sure why. Part of it was my not liking her in the first place, of course, but there was something more than that. I didn't like how "Love Sonic" had become the entire length, depth, and breadth of her character. But then something happened that solved it:

Rule 63 got popular with non-creepy artists.

For those not in the know, Rule 63 is one of the infamous "Rules of the Internet", and dictates, essentially, that for every character, there will be fanart of them with the opposite gender. Now, this being the Internet, the result is normally not something you want to look at... Until people started just drawing characters with the opposite gender, but looking completely normal, often for the humour value- For example, a female SatAM Tails who looked pretty much identical, save for longer eyelashes, or a female Snively being delighted at the sudden presence of hair. Anyway, point was that artists whom I was familiar with started drawing this stuff and doing it well.

Of course, as this spread, shipping started up, and of course, the front runner was female!Sonic and male!Amy... And the male versions of Amy came across as the creepiest guy that ever did creep. Think about it: He obsessively stalks her, ignores any attempts to dissuade him, attempts to sneak up and grab her, and if she does something that displeases him, out comes the hammer. That's... disturbing. Oh, but canonically, Amy's the girl, so it's funny, cute and charming when she does it to Sonic. Except no, it really, really isn't.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Kureejii Lea » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:23 pm

ToaArcan wrote:Post reboot didn't help her at all. I really disliked that Blaze got reduced to a damsel for Amy to save in her own story.


IIRC, Amy wasn't even in that story originally.

Then I went into 256, fully aware that Sonic and Sally's reunion was going to be their last hurrah as a couple unless Ian changed his mind about romance or another writer decided to do a hookup for a Valentine's special or something


SEGA doesn't want Sonic to be in a romantic relationship with anyone. It doesn't matter what any writer "decides."

And then to top it off, she learns the Mystic Melody overnight! This thing apparently warrants Pearly practicing it constantly for a long time, and she can't pull it off, but then Amy magically learns it immediately.


Pearly tries it for the very first time right when things start to go bad, then later worries that she might mess up, and then she does just fine. I think you're overstating the difficulty she was having with it a bit. She says she's been learning a lot from Coral, not that she's been constantly practicing that one ritual for a long time and always failing.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby FancyFool » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:12 am

Specs64z wrote:Cream: I dunno. I'm pretty indifferent. Though, considering the already crowded cast... she wouldn't exactly be at the top of my list for "needs more screen time/devolopment" sry m8 :/

It's alright, though I'm honestly getting sick of that sentiment. I mean, as said many times, Cream has had a delayed debut into this comic for eight entire years, heck she was actually the very last main game character to debut, with Omega, Blaze, Silver, and even Marine appearing in the comics much sooner. Cream already missed out on a VERY large chunk of the comic book and for the past five years since her debut she honestly hasn't gotten to appear much, let alone do much of anything! Of all the characters, Cream is the one who needs screen time the most and everyone would rather deprive her of that much needed screen time just cause she's "uninteresting"? Well, how do you expect her to become interesting if she only gets to appear uncommonly? Cream needs character development in order to garner interest and character development requires screen time; by declining Cream any screen time, she can't get any development and, of course, this results in her looking perpetually "uninteresting". I'm just saying, Cream is already an underused character; if she is to improve, she needs to be used more and be used effectively. Every other character, even Big the flipping Cat, have had plenty of screen time and contributions, it's high time Cream started getting hers (which I know will be coming in April but dang it why did it have to take so long!?)
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Kureejii Lea » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:56 am

FancyFool wrote: I mean, as said many times, Cream has had a delayed debut into this comic for eight entire years, heck she was actually the very last main game character to debut, with Omega, Blaze, Silver, and even Marine appearing in the comics much sooner.


That's because she literally wasn't usable. SEGA prevented it because she was "Sonic X exclusive" (even though she'd been in the games first).

Of all the characters, Cream is the one who needs screen time the most and everyone would rather deprive her of that much needed screen time just cause she's "uninteresting"?


Who are you speaking for, here?

Every other character, even Big the flipping Cat, have had plenty of screen time and contributions, it's high time Cream started getting hers (which I know will be coming in April but dang it why did it have to take so long!?)


Big's had focus in one SU arc, whereas Cream's been in two (so far with about the same amount of prevalence as Amy and Blaze excluding crossover stuff), and he wasn't even in the original draft of that story. I don't think it's really fair to act like everyone hates and dismisses your own personal favourite character and then disparage another less-popular character for getting any focus. Besides, Cream will be around before April anyway.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Specs64z » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:01 am

FancyFool wrote:
Specs64z wrote:Cream: I dunno. I'm pretty indifferent. Though, considering the already crowded cast... she wouldn't exactly be at the top of my list for "needs more screen time/devolopment" sry m8 :/

I'm just saying, Cream is already an underused character; if she is to improve, she needs to be used more and be used effectively. Every other character, even Big the flipping Cat, have had plenty of screen time and contributions, it's high time Cream started getting hers (which I know will be coming in April but dang it why did it have to take so long!?)

Fair enough. Better her than Big (who somehow got an entire page of nothing important in 279). Personally, I think Antoine is also in need of a solo adventure for some development and a real reason to be on the team. What exactly is his role? Everyone can do what he does better than him.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby akessel92 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:32 am

Kureejii Lea wrote:
ToaArcan wrote:Post reboot didn't help her at all. I really disliked that Blaze got reduced to a damsel for Amy to save in her own story.


IIRC, Amy wasn't even in that story originally.

Then I went into 256, fully aware that Sonic and Sally's reunion was going to be their last hurrah as a couple unless Ian changed his mind about romance or another writer decided to do a hookup for a Valentine's special or something


SEGA doesn't want Sonic to be in a romantic relationship with anyone. It doesn't matter what any writer "decides."

And then to top it off, she learns the Mystic Melody overnight! This thing apparently warrants Pearly practicing it constantly for a long time, and she can't pull it off, but then Amy magically learns it immediately.


Pearly tries it for the very first time right when things start to go bad, then later worries that she might mess up, and then she does just fine. I think you're overstating the difficulty she was having with it a bit. She says she's been learning a lot from Coral, not that she's been constantly practicing that one ritual for a long time and always failing.


Arcan you may have had a point initially with pirate plunder panic and waves of change. But here's the thing, regardless of Amy's role in those stories she's done nothing but help them. Take a look at the DC and marvel superheroes, even the most super powered ones have been bailed out of tight scrapes before by the less capable and vice versa for the weak characters being inspired to do their best by even the weak characters as well. You only see the obsessed fan girl. When her obsession with isn't just wanting be with sonic but also, wanting to be heroic as he is.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby FancyFool » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:06 am

Kureejii Lea wrote:That's because she literally wasn't usable. SEGA prevented it because she was "Sonic X exclusive" (even though she'd been in the games first).

I know that and I'm not blaming you guys for it (though deeply apologize if I am :oops: Please know that's not intentional). But with that said, Cream's debut into the comics was still very delayed; she didn't show up until after every other game character had already debuted and I expected Cream to get at least decent screen time/development to make up for that delayed debut. Of course, as I've made clear ever since joining this forum, I strongly feel that Cream's appearances have been negligible ever since her long-overdue debut.

Like, let's compare Cream's debut and treatment afterwards with Omega, another character with a delayed debut: when Omega finally got into the comics, the very first thing he did was fight Shadow and Gamma, essentially winning against both, and then immediately after he fires all his weaponry into the face of a GOD! And ever since, Omega has been consistently portrayed as a destruction loving war-machine, spewing all sorts of quips and going through many antics that has made him one of the more beloved characters in the comics, especially since his game counterpart is more mixed in reception. When Cream finally shows up, the very first thing she did was airlift Amy so she can attack Snively... Inadvertently destroying her house in the process. And then throughout TTT, Cream goes on to unintentionally speak ill of what used to be Knothole, anger Amy by pointing out that Sonic was dating Sally (which begs the question of how she would've known that when she hasn't been in the city for very long and JUST learned of Knothole), airlift Amy some more, try to attack Team Hooligan/Team Dark only to get incapacitated... Overall Cream didn't do much of anything throughout TTT, with the exception of blindsiding Nack and preventing him from shooting Amy, but even that wasn't treated like a big moment. And ever since, Cream has been portrayed as an overly passive character, whose only actions of note are airlifting people, finding lost items, and either being ineffective in fights or chickening out of them (despite being consistently portrayed as a very capable if not powerful character in the games). And can anyone honestly tell me that their opinion of Archie!Cream is any better than their opinion of Game!Cream or even X!Cream like it is with Omega?

Kureejii Lea wrote:
FancyFool wrote:Of all the characters, Cream is the one who needs screen time the most and everyone would rather deprive her of that much needed screen time just cause she's "uninteresting"?

Who are you speaking for, here?

I don't mean to speak "for" anyone, the only one I will speak for is myself, but I am speaking of those who have voiced indifference to Cream's character and stated that they don't care much for her negligible treatment, if not completely agree with it. Like, remember back when 274 first came out and KKM spoke out against Cream's handling? I swear nearly everyone was voicing about how it's "justified" and tried to shut KKM up however they could. Two people even voiced disbelief at someone for wanting more out of Cream than being sidelined in insulting ways and one other person, at the very end of the discussion, literally stated "Discussion on Cream is stupid"... And when I started my own topic to speak out against Cream's treatment in the comics thus far, only two people agreed with me (though one of them still thought the treatment justified); everyone else was pretty much saying "Cream has never been a fascinating character" and overall didn't see any issue. One of them even used Cream's lessened role in the games to justify Cream's insignificant role in the comics, even though the comics give extra screen time/development to the characters with lessened roles as is the case with Silver (and Cream was made a Freedom Fighter, so having actual impact in the comics is severely warranted).

Like, I don't care about Blaze the Cat in the slightest; I am completely indifferent to her and wouldn't care when she makes an appearance. But despite my feelings, I'm very willing to speak out for Blaze if her portrayal in the comics have been underwhelming, which is arguably the case given her minimal appearances and how she often gets easily defeated/captured despite being one of the more powerful characters. But when such a thing happens with Cream, who is already criminally underused, hardly anyone bats an eye, mostly because Cream isn't the clear winner of the big popularity contest.
Kureejii Lea wrote:Big's had focus in one SU arc, whereas Cream's been in two (so far with about the same amount of prevalence as Amy and Blaze excluding crossover stuff), and he wasn't even in the original draft of that story. I don't think it's really fair to act like everyone hates and dismisses your own personal favourite character and then disparage another less-popular character for getting any focus. Besides, Cream will be around before April anyway.

My most honest apologies, I didn't mean to diss Big like that. I meant to use him more as an example of how insignificant Cream's presence in the book has been in comparison to other characters. True, Big has only had focus in one SU Arc, one he wasn't even originally part of, but within that Arc he at the very least had a very heartfelt moment (voicing how he doesn't mind Nicole being an artificial lifeform in the slightest and stating that he doesn't care what anyone is so long they're nice) and had a few moments of awesomeness. And even in the main book, Big gets relatively good amount of prominence and impact. Like, when he first showed up after the Reboot began, the first thing Big did was lead Sonic and Tails to Rotor and take part in the Badnik fight, ultimately playing a major part by tossing Silver Sonic into Rotor's turret. And after that Big takes part in plenty of action, such as the evacuation of Station Square and other various battles.

Cream, on the other hand, though she appeared in two SU Arcs, she honestly didn't have much of an impact bar airlifting others and a few funny moments. Even when she does take part in the action, it's hardly notable and/or overshadowed by others. And when Cream first appears in the main book, after the reboot, the very first thing she did is take part in fighting Metal Sonic... Where she was largely ineffective and seriously didn't do anything. Granted, Amy and Sally couldn't really take down Metal as well but they were at least doing some damage! They were actively fighting Metal whilst Cream attempted to (and failed) to get Bean and Bark to help and order Cheese to attack, which did little more than distract Metal. And ever since, Cream's been actively sidelined, forced to stay on Sky Patrol and literally do nothing else except serve food and coffee (accidentally injuring herself trying to do the latter no less) while everyone else took part in missions. Even when one of those missions involved Chao, which Cream is heavily associated with and no doubt would've had a big impact, Cream was forced to stay on Sky Patrol, missing out a huge opportunity. Even when Cream saved everyone's lives, no one took notice! That moment didn't advance/develop Cream's character when it should've and Sally continued to sideline her afterwards! True, Big is kind of in the same boat but he still gets to partake in missions whereas Cream never did and seemingly had a bigger impact in rescuing the Freedom Fighters, given that he was able to save more than one people while Cream could only airlift Amy to safety (again)... Heck, Big got to take part in much of the action throughout World's Unite whilst the most Cream did was give Sally a freaking band-aid, after Sally declined her any action/contribution once again. (In fact, I've always wanted to point out that that moment shows how Sally's concern for Cream's safety is completely stupid and falls flat since Sally herself was the only one who got hurt in that battle and said injury was incredibly minor, only needing a stupid band-aid).
Last edited by FancyFool on Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Penguin God » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:12 am

ToaArcan wrote:She went on to be a major player in almost every arc up to WU, and the plots kept grinding to a halt so the story could remind us that she was super-special-amazing

Unless Amy showing up counts as the plot grinding to a halt to show her as super-amazing, I really can't find examples. She's gotten about as much attention as Tails, Rotor and Big. That's not exactly intrusive when she's one of the five main cast members of the franchise.
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