Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

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Do you prefer Mainline Sonic to run on Internal or External logic?

Internal
17
77%
External
1
5%
Either one
4
18%
 
Total votes : 22

Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby DJGameFreakTheIguana » Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:00 pm

Mordum wrote:
Penguin God wrote:I still say this shift between internal and external logic is essentially just made up as an excuse to feel objective or correct about not liking something,


As usual, you're the smartest person in any given thread you post in. This is basically it.

It's funny how you guys are trying to twist this so you can feel justified in disagreeing with the analysis that your best supporting arguments to your own side is calling ours into question. ToaArcan did make the point before that nobody was writing glowing reviews for external logic, which was true, and hardly anyone has been doing so before then, as far as I've seen.

"Internal logic" as the baseline requirement for something being "good" and "objective" is incredibly silly when, as the thread's demonstrated, you don't actually have to have the characters you've followed be the ones with actual arcs, or who relate on a thematic or emotional level to the story.

Ye what have been the results of the polar opposite of this? Again, pointing to the problems external logic has produced.

Between someone earlier in the thread saying liking internal logic over external gave him "higher standards" while admitting the context of those internal logics didn't actually matter, and me just now seeing that someone literally thought that it didn't actually matter that the dramatic stories he said were superior to current comedy were stories that had literally NOTHING to do with the grand dramatic ideas and stakes proposed by the story. All of the arguments for internal logic, an argument that insists the necessity of context and grounding, are constantly argued from an anti-context perspective.

Because it's was going to the point of calling out flaws that mattered to you personally without actually explaining those point other then saying "well this didn't happen so the story isn't good", yet again, you've barely defended the latter of this argument, telling me the only way for you to any point in this argument is to, again, call out personal issues that weren't even biog issues from the get go. In SA2, characters still has more motivation from either their own character or other actions, rather then just "what we expect".

To the point that when confronted with the fact that "internal logic" has never adhered to the sort of higher contextual logic most good drama actually does, the conversation just got reset with him explaining the difference between internal and external, as if that was ever in question. Everyone in this thread who supports "internal" as somehow being objectively better seems to crumble under even the slightest requirement of abstract thought.

I've already gone through most of this in the last point, even if you can be right about us "crumbling under the slightest requirements", again, when have you supported the external logic as good? Your entire argument depends on you being able to say SA2 is flawed on a scale nobody would even care about because you still got a good story out of it in the first place. What's even funny about it is that you simply go and say not adhering to the requirements that's only important to 1 or 2 people makes the story bad, not exactly why internal logic is bad. I will admit to the fact that I'm no big story analysis kind of guy, I just want something enjoyable, like most people, and SA2 somehow did a better job of that then Sonic Colors, and many people have felt that way long before that video was ever made.

Oh, and about "resetting with him explaining the difference between internal and external, as if that was ever in question", I advise you watch the video over again, cause I was resetting the conversation to get more to the point of that video, and try to get away from that ridiculous argument about what ToaArcan said about genwunners and you saying it's false for no reason, and no, "it has nothing to do with anyone in the topic" is not a reason, that was an excuse you pulled out when you crumbled under many people in your position being called out for what it was. THAT was the other reason why I reset the topic. Case in point, you could right 5 legible paragraphs to the flaws of SA2, but when do you get to the point that adhering to internal logic is actually a bad thing, even if we were to say you were right about SA2 being a bad story, which it wasn't, because it provided for more entertainment and interest compared to what we got from external logic. That's the biggest thing that's gone on for years: Constant bashing of classic 3D games and people going out of their way to explain why it's bad, constant praise of modern 3D titles with people going out of their way just to tell you it's good, and reasons always stem from the statement you regarded as false for no real reason.

However, like I said before, try bringing up a point to why external logic is somehow a good thing, or your only argument is calling out the flaws of games under internal, not why the logic itself is actually a bad thing. When I say watch the video again, I mean form 0:32 to 1:58.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Penguin God » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:41 pm

My argument is that this "internal vs external logic" bit is an illusion, a fake argument that doesn't really mean anything except "the thing I like is better because it's better." I feel no reason to defend Sonic switching to external logic from internal when it hasn't. I can and will if I feel it's necessary, I've enjoyed loads of stories that operate on meta-knowledge or archetypes over character arcs and 'logical progression' but Sonic's stance on the matter has been consistent throughout the entire series so it wouldn't really be relevant.

Heck, you talk about how the people who don't like SA2, or even people who just have problems with SA2, must all be GenWunners with no argument and just have personal problems. But you know what? In terms of clear character arcs, dialog that supports the character instead of the plot or the audience, and stories that have a clear motivation and resolution from beginning to end, Unleashed, Colors and Lost World blow the Adventure games out of the water. People here say that Sonic making a copyright joke somehow is unfitting for the character, but the dialog in SA1 and SA2 is famous for being so bad and corny (and honestly, NO game before or after has had dialog and characterizations as flanderized as Heroes did). Unleashed is the most in focus a mainline Sonic game has gone with Sonic's character, and Lost World gives Sonic, Tails and Eggman a clear conflict that resolves near the end of the story based on their individual character traits. Colors is a straightforward adventure but Sonic, Tails and Eggman there all have clear goals, clear reasons for why they're part of the story and why they're playing the roles they are. The only game that doesn't feature clear character goals and a story that's always moving towards a specific direction is Generations, and that is because Generations focused 100% on gameplay, which is not a sin and also has very little to do with internal vs external logic.

So what is it that the Adventure games do that make them more internally logical? It's not having character arcs, because the later games do that, sometimes better. It's not having a good plot, because SA2 is riddled with convoluted plot twists that don't make much sense and SA1's plot is just things happening on the same level as Unleashed or Colors. It's not a consistent world, or consistent characters. The only real differences are a shift from drama to comedy, a ocus on gameplay, and plots that don't feature most of the tertiary cast. In other words, nothing that has anything to do with internal vs external logic. It's just something the video makes up to say "these old games are objectively better, because I say so."
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby RaceProUK » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:29 pm

Penguin God wrote:People here say that Sonic making a copyright joke somehow is unfitting for the character
This is what puzzles me the most. The franchise is centred on a wisecracking speedy blue hedgehog fighting robots made by a fat man who wants to build a theme park empire; can anyone seriously claim that that has nothing comedic about it?
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby ToaArcan » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:53 pm

Lost World having good character arcs? Well, it's better than the other two Pontaff games in that respect, buuut;

1) Sonic decides that he has to trust Eggman... because the plot says so. Never once is it implied that Tails is wrong about his ability to undo the machine's effects, and everyone who knows anything about Sonic will know that Tails is smarter.

2) Tails grabs the conflict ball and runs with it when he gets super-ticked-off about Sonic trusting Eggman. It's not like he's had an issue with it happening before, but suddenly he has a huge fragile ego, even though Tails has always been one of the most humble of the characters: Sonic is the arrogant braggard, whereas Tails is modest and somewhat insecure.

3) THe Zeti are beyond a joke, personality-wise. Deciding to destroy all life on Not-Mobius is enormously over-the-top when just one inhabitant was hurting them and they could easily take vengeance on him and leave the world alone. If they want to attack Sonic for hitting Zazz and Zomom a bit, er, maybe, I guess, but they were the ones attacking him. Their motive is apparently to take vengeance on Eggman, but they never actually do anything against him, they just keep attacking Sonic. Narratively, they never pose a threat to Sonic, Tails, or Eggman. The one time they have a victory is when Sonic runs away from a fight he would otherwise easily win to save Tails, because Tails has been useless since the GBA games.

4) In Generations, Eggman was trapped in an empty void with his past self, with no way out, yet here, he's back and he's fine. Generations also showed that he abandoned Orbot and Cubot in space after Colours, yet they return here, safe and sound. Neither of these points is explained (Whereas the Adventure games gave most plot points a reason or an explanation).

5) Orbot and CUbot return... because... uh, reasons...

6) Tails became a hero in his own right in 1999. In many ways, he's more capable than Sonic. He's slower, yes, but he can fly, he's a genius, he invented the spindash, he has a hyperspace arsenal that puts Amy's hammers to shame, he all but appropriated the Tornado from Sonic and built its replacement, and his SUper Emerald form is the best one. And yet here, the game would have you believe that all he can do is fly the TOrnado and do stuff with machines, because it has to justify him not being playable. Now, Unleashed is guilty of this too, but at least there he was dealing with Dark Gaia monsters and not the same robots he's been pulping since his debut in Sonic 2.

7) Knuckles and Amy show up to do... nothing of value. Knuckles is an idiot who gets overpowered by Flickies, and the Master Emerald is neither seen nor mentioned. Amy, who decided to make Sonic respect her in SA1, and pretty much saved the world in SA2, stands around and asks Sonic to try harder.


Also, Tails' purpose for being in Colours was "Facilitate Sonic's jokes", which aren't funny.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Penguin God » Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:11 am

Sonic is reckless and doesn't think actions through (a consistent Sonic trait, but one that usually doesn't blow up in his face). This is shown when he kicks the conch without thinking of the consequences and immediately feels the consequences. This is shown when Eggman says let's team up and Sonic says okay without thinking about how Tails feels on the matter. Tails and Sonic fight a bit, and Sonic learns to be more considerate of his partner. It's incredibly basic, and a bit hamhanded in the delivery, but it's a clear character arc.
Tails has confidence in his own abilities but desires validation from Sonic (a consistent Tails trait, but one that usually doesn't result in fighting in the games). He feels betrayed when Sonic doesn't listen to him and then later listens to Eggman without considering that Tails could solve the problem on his own. He ends up not needing Sonic's validation but also proving his worth and cleverness. I know you think he should feel better about himself, and that's fine, but the fact that he doesn't is not a betrayal of his portrayals either through the game or in comparison to others.
Eggman pulls the exact same shtick he's pulled many times before, he makes an evil plan without totally thinking it through, he hates that Sonic never pays any attention, and he constantly thinks of himself as the smartest man in the room even when he's not in control of the situation. The fact that he escaped the void or that Orbot and Cubot got out doesn't really need an explanation. Nobody expected Eggman to be stuck forever in the void, and nobody expected him to be stuck in outer space at the end of Colors forever either. That IS external logic, but it's also one that has been applied to Eggman since the very beginning. No matter what situation Eggman is in at the end of one game, he will be at the top of his game at the beginning of the next. Nobody ever asks how Eggman survived orbital re-entry after Doomsday Zone.
The Zeti are evil. Seriously, the game is absolutely clear that the Zeti are not only killing the world to avenge their betrayal, but because they are cold blooded full blooded monsters who delight in causing havoc and destruction. The fact that they get to use the power they gain from the Extractor to kill Eggman is a huge bonus. Not only that, the Deadly Six's attacks on Sonic are explained as growing interest. Zazz attacks because Eggman piques Zavok's interest in Sonic as an enemy, and Zazz is aching for action. Zomom attacks because Eggman personally sends him out. Zik attacks Sonic because he sees the hedgehog as a threat that Zavok is ignoring after Sonic disappoints him. Defeating Zik proves that Sonic is going to be a problem, so Zavok sends Zeena and Zor before finally dealing with the hedgehog himself. Not only does the game provide motives for their actions, it even gives them unique interactions between each other, making them a family unit in addition to a military regiment.
Orbot, Cubot, Knuckles and Amy have no plot relevance, but their character traits are never betrayed in any way and if being in the game without majorly affecting the plot was a crime then literally every Sonic game since Sonic 2 has failed. Lost World's writing isn't very good, it's sloppy, it doesn't explain its setting or the Zeti as a concept enough to make an impact, and the dialog is heavy handed. But it doesn't break "internal logic" at all, especially when it comes to character interactions and decisions.

You just don't like it. And that's okay. But it's not okay to pretend you're a better person for it, or to pretend that everybody who disagrees with you is a slack-jawed moron who's got nothing to say.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby SwingofThings » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:35 am

Penguin God wrote:People here say that Sonic making a copyright joke somehow is unfitting for the character


Well, in one episode of Dissected (9-2 I think) they do bring that copyright joke into the discussion. It felt to me as if shutting down the generators would be kind of equivalent for rescuing aliens. In other words, it feels like rescuing aliens was kind of breaking the copyright because that was (for Sonic at least, it seems so) the only way of rescuing them. Since it sounded for me like shutting down those generators would offend the copyright, it felt fine to me.

As for going into the real deal here, for me internal logic works better since I can empathise with the characters and it is one way of getting into stories that feels pretty natural to me, and sometimes leads to the point where I may miss some plotholes or missing elements just because I imagine stuff subconsciously into those holes. On the other hand, external logic would work as long as it won´t go into that kind of situation where Sonic and others are commenting their motives and contexts of those motives and that sort of thing, like the Dissected series do. It wouldn´t really go very smoothly for me. Now I would like to make it clear that this is my opinion considering plot in general, and most of all, plots more serious elements. Jokes are fine as long as I am in the right kind of mental state.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby ToaArcan » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:55 am

That's all well and good within one game. but I'm pretty certain that none of this will matter in the next game, unlike the development from SA1. SEGA says that Sonic is reckless and arrogant, so he's going to keep being reckless and arrogant until they realise that Development = God, Static = Monotony.

Tails hasn't been seeking Sonic's approval since SA1, with the exception of Battle, which is one of the few black spots in that game's story. They've been operating as pretty much equals even after Tails stopped doing anything worthwhile. Sonic does respect him and trust him, and in that respect, the story fails even more, because it had to A) Make Sonic not count on Tails to do it, and B) Make Tails whiny and petulant and in need of approval to get this story told.

Knuckles' traits are never betrayed... Except for the Master Emerald Guardian thing, the strength thing, and the not-being-a-moron-just-gullible thing... WHich is pretty much the entire core of his character. Even any attempt at a rivalry is treated as a joke and Knuckles being a pathetic loser.

This is one of the big External faults in the game: Knuckles and Amy appear because they're popular. Tails appears in the Pontaff games because he's popular. None of them actually do anything (Tails manages some semblance of a support role, but in Colours, it amounts to "Tell Sonic has has to do the thing he was doing already" and Lost World, it's "Undo a thing that Eggman did"), but they're here because popularity. A la Shadow in Boom. They don't do anything, even though they're all capable of fighting this sort of issue in their own right, because SEGA are afraid of ticking off the whiny fans that hate every character that isn't Sonic. If Knuckles is going to brag that he's better than Sonic, make him playable and fun to play as so that it at least looks like he might not be being a blowhard. Lost World's Knuckles is the SatAM Antoine of the SEGAverse. Pathetic, stupid, and egotistical. It's especially egregious in Generations, where pretty much the whole cast except Big and Omega show up, and all they do is cheer Sonic on. Some of them, I understand. Tails, Knuckles and Blaze? No. Shadow and Silver? @#$% no! THey were perfectly capable of fighting Sonic, but when the Time Eater shows up, they just... stand there. Because Sonic is the main character and nobody else is allowed to steal his thunder.

There's your external logic. Nobody bar Sonic or Eggman is allowed to do anything of worth, because otherwise the Internet will whine. And if anyone's going to argue that this is better for the games... I'm really not sure what to say about that.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby RaceProUK » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:02 am

ToaArcan wrote:Nobody bar Sonic or Eggman is allowed to do anything of worth, because otherwise the Internet will whine.
And judging by the evidence here and elsewhere, if only Sonic and Eggman do anything of worth, the Internet will whine ;)

Darned if you do, darned if you don't, really.

Edit: Huh, wasn't expecting to hit a word filter there… I'll use a different word.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Penguin God » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:51 pm

First off, the only character who really 'develops' from game to game is Shadow. Sonic gets exactly zero character development through the Adventure games, as does Knuckles and Amy. At most, they just have traits they already had shown off (even Knuckles, who presumably should get a lot of development from learning his past in SA1, never really reacts much to it.) Tails, as you've already admitted, simply repeats his SA1 character arc in SA2 and then just abandons it for Heroes. Characters developing and changing in ways that carry over between games is never a thing in Sonic, nor does it have anything to do with internal vs external logic. The only things that carried over were sometimes plot details, and that's not the same at all. I'm glad though that when someone says Lost World has no character arcs at all and I show off that it clearly does the argument changes so that doesn't count.
If characters appearing because they're popular makes a game work only due to external logic, then the SA games fail much harder at this. Tails wasn't even originally planned to be in Sonic Adventure 2, and only appeared because fans asked for him. The story never demanded 6 playstyles in Sonic Adventure, they warped the story to have Rouge, Shadow and Tails playable in SA2, the justification for 12 playable characters in Heroes is flimsy as tissue paper. This is, again, you trying to throw out some internal logic where it's something you want and crying out that it's external logic when it's something you don't want. There is nothing less 'logical' or 'in character' about Sonic being the only playable character. You just don't like it. Stop trying to pretend that this makes you objectively better, or that anybody who disagrees must obviously be wrong and simply deluded.
Knuckles and Amy show up in Lost World because they're part of the core cast. Amy says something Amy would say, nothing is betrayed. Knuckles says something Knuckles would say and gets carried away by some flickies and friends in a background gag. Nothing is betrayed but your expectations, because you want him playable. If you liked the game, you could just say that Knuckles isn't there because only Sonic gets to ride on the Tornado. But instead, it's external logic that he isn't playable despite him being playable never actually being required, because Lost World is bad.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Gonzo » Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:16 pm

Tails wasn't even originally planned to be in Sonic Adventure 2, and only appeared because fans asked for him. The story never demanded 6 playstyles in Sonic Adventure, they warped the story to have Rouge, Shadow and Tails playable in SA2

Off-topic, but: is that really how it went down, or did people just assume this? The amount of work it would take to not only build stages for Tails, Shadow, and Rouge but rewrite the story to comfortably fit in two of those three seems like it would require more time than SEGA had in-between previews/reveals and whatnot.

SEGA probably wanted Tails's Tornado walker to be a surprise, so they kept his presence under wraps; Rouge was a new character, so they waited to reveal her, as well. That these two would've been no-shows/non-existent feels like somewhat broad assumptions based on early screencaps alone (as is the idea someone posited that Knux represented a third Neutral campaign).
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Penguin God » Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:28 pm

Early interviews denied that Tails was in the game (although he and Rouge would have likely still appeared, just not as playable characters.) The original concept was to have Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman as playable characters in branching stories, building off the most popular parts of SA1. Tails' levels are the most blatant effect of this change, since his levels aren't elaborately designed like Eggman's and almost none of them have real impact on the story (and of course have little to do with Tails' gameplay in the past.)
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby The Swordsman » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:15 pm

Penguin God wrote:First off, the only character who really 'develops' from game to game is Shadow. Sonic gets exactly zero character development through the Adventure games, as does Knuckles and Amy. At most, they just have traits they already had shown off (even Knuckles, who presumably should get a lot of development from learning his past in SA1, never really reacts much to it.) Tails, as you've already admitted, simply repeats his SA1 character arc in SA2 and then just abandons it for Heroes. Characters developing and changing in ways that carry over between games is never a thing in Sonic, nor does it have anything to do with internal vs external logic.

I disagree with this Tails does not repeat his SA1 character arc and the changes to his character do stick. He is very independent of Sonic in SA2. Amy became a member of Sonic's group in SA1 and that sticks as well and her characterization and growth from SA1 is vital to getting Shadow to change.

Penguin God wrote:Knuckles and Amy show up in Lost World because they're part of the core cast. Amy says something Amy would say, nothing is betrayed. Knuckles says something Knuckles would say and gets carried away by some flickies and friends in a background gag. Nothing is betrayed but your expectations, because you want him playable. If you liked the game, you could just say that Knuckles isn't there because only Sonic gets to ride on the Tornado. But instead, it's external logic that he isn't playable despite him being playable never actually being required, because Lost World is bad.

Knuckles shouldn't be there in the first place, he should be guarding the Master Emerald (a artifact more powerful than the Chaos Emeralds and can negate them or empower them) When other characters were playable in S3&K, SA1, and SA2 there were justified reasons for them to be playable. I rather never see Knuckles again because he guarding the Master Emerald than have him show up because he is a popular character.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby The KKM » Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:55 pm

Yes, deny the character from @#$% existing due to a plotpoint from nearly 20 years ago that Sonic Team themselves quickly realised was not interesting enough to justify excising an entire character from the main cast
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Penguin God » Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:39 pm

Also why does Knuckles actually have to be on Angel Island to guard it? I mean, the island is so hard to find it's considered legendary, it's huge and full of traps, and to date only four people have ever made it to the Emerald, two of which are Sonic and Tails. Knuckles' original character traits that often go ignored were that he felt restrained by his duty and he was very lonely, two things that he was very jealous of Sonic over. As time went on he got more and more used to leaving the house and spending time with friends, so that now he can leave the island alone for a day or two simply because. Amy shows up in SA2 because she's a popular character, showing up again isn't character development, and her helping Shadow isn't because of her SA1 arc, it's just showing off the same character trait she had in the past. That's not development, it's just a character trait the same way you know she'll always side with Sonic over whatever.

You want a character whose arc was actually betrayed by their popularity? Look at Shadow. Shadow's game ended with him dead, a noble sacrifice, and then it took three more games to figure out a convoluted story arc to justify bringing him back. Sonic being the only one playable because it makes development easier and is a popular request is only as much external logic as shoehorning the entire tertiary cast into every game because they all had their fans was external logic. Heck, Eggman isn't playable in SA2 because it makes sense for the story: it was because people asked to control Eggman because he's popular, and because Gamma's story in SA1 was popular. The Chaotix weren't brought back for story reasons, they were brought back to be a fourth trio as a novel gameplay experience. Silver was a hedgehog because hedgehogs in Sonic are popular. But that doesn't suddenly invalidate SA2's story or make it external instead of internal. Those sort of decisions are made when making literally any game. The story is still internally consistent for everybody but GUN, whose actions make no sense whatsoever but are also faceless and get easily handwaved. And you can say the same for the later games too.

Again, my argument, because I feel that we're getting really bogged down in details and I hate arguing details instead of my actual point: I cannot see a real shift between internal logic and external logic for the Sonic series. The games have had consistent superficial characterization throughout the entire history of the series. The plots have not become more or less consistent within themselves, with only varying shades of complexity and comedic/dramatic. So what is internal logic if it's not these things? If it's just an excuse to say "I'm more right for liking/disliking these games" then that's nothing but egotism. It's not rationality or logic, it's simply congratulating one's self for what form their biases take.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby The KKM » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:35 am

Gamma's also in the game for external factors, one should add, as fans'd mail Sonic Team asking to play as a badnik. And Big, in order to promote the Dreamcast fishing controller.
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