Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Forum devoted to Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Universe and the entire Sonic line by Archie Comics.

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Uwaaii » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:38 pm

I've seen several cartoons/comics about male non-human species having an attractive human girlfriend. They're seen caring for each other, dating, having a romantic moment, and maybe the girl kissing the guy but nothing more than that is portrayed. The one that I remember most was Transfomers: a giant alien robot dating a woman the size of his arm? Darn. I didn't see that many of the other way around, but I saw it so many times and I never saw people questioning it so I assumed this was considered fine. Looks like it's not. I personally believe you don't need sxx to be in a relationship, so I get surprised when people try to label love and relationship by "if they can do it or not".

People forget it's a world with humans, human-ish animals that act/think like humans with cultures and technology, normal animals, and tiny animals living together. Maybe if Elise was more cartoon looking there would've been less negative response. Humans in 06 looked realistic enough to make them out of place next to Sonic and his friends, and people can't help applying real world logic to it.
User avatar
Uwaaii
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:09 am
Location: Where am I

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Azul » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:28 pm

Mordum wrote:Martian Manhunter does not exist in Sonic's world and therefore plays by different rules. If my argument is specifically about how Sonic's world determines and interprets the nature of species, pulling out a character from a completely different comic is a massive non-argument and bordering on a logical fallacy. This is all ignoring that "Martian" is, in fact, the human of his planet and Martian biology is all about shapeshifting, which makes biological incompatibility a non-issue if there ever was one.

The rest of your reply to me is...supporting my argument, so I'm not really sure what you want me to say. You're arguing against yourself at this point and expecting your kneejerk emotional response to the subject to be valid enough to hold up.

It seems beyond clear that nobody in the games sees any difference in humanity between humans who are distantly related to apes or humans who are closely related to hedgehogs. Rouge and Shadow are employed by a human run government who don't even bat an eye at their species. Elise can swoon like the girl next door at Sonic and neither of their reactions, or anyone else's, implies this is socially frowned upon. Sonic is considered a world renowned hero and Shadow's crimes are so surprising because nobody would've expected this world's paragon of virtue, a non-human, to perform criminal and terrorist acts. The fact Sonic did it was surprising, there's nothing to indicate anyone thought that of course less-than-human beings would be criminals. In the games, prejudice toward human-animals not only doesn't exist, but these differences literally do not, at any meaningful point I can think of, occur to people at any point.

It is a consistent fact of this interpretation of this world that there is no meaningful difference between humans and human-animals. Sonic is basically human in this world's logic.


It's a conversation of preferences. I don't need any further justification for it other than "I don't like it." I just wanted further clarification as to what you'd consider human and human-like in Sonic's world but I got my answer. And if I wanted to argue againist myself, I'd do it in the privacy of a bathroom mirror like any sane person.

And I only brought up MM because I wanted to better highlught that just as Sonic, he's of an entirely different species but isn't treated any differently from his human allies but isn't refered to as such. Comepletely ignoring human-martian compatability because I don't care about that. And it's not that they consider him human, rather they acknowledge that he's different but equal. At the same time, refering to either of them as human would be fallacious because to me it sounds like you're saying in a fictionalized setting that sentience and free range of thought is primarily a human quality and any species that posses it is defined as human-like in universe when saying so would be incorrect because it's a trait both species share. It'd be no different then saying that the humans of Sonic's world are hedgehog-like due to their snarky attitudes. It's really a debate about semantics.

MetalSkulkBane wrote:And this is where we differ. I don't care about this part.
I know that on basic level love is just a way for us to reproduce. But when I see Sonic and... no wait: assuming that I would support Sonic X Elise, I wouldn't consider how they would do it. Heck, Sonic isn't adult and he doesn't age, they won't do it. I would think "aww, isn't love lovely? I'm going to commision pics with them and other things shippers do".
I don't care what they will do later. Normal sex can be creepy too, I just don't think about it.

Besides, you know about Vector X Vanilla shipping? He's a reptile and she's a mammal. Shouldn't that be even creepier possibility?


Out-universe, he doesn't age because fiction. Remeber that time Sonic turned 15 after being 15 for 20 years? Good times Generations, good times. Also, the Vector and Vanilla pair is a weak argument because different species relationships amoung mobians is analgous to people of different races/ethinicties dating. Because it doesn't matter which animal you are, they're all mobians or whatever we call them now since SEGA disconed Mobius. Vector x Ella however would be a different story because they're different altogether. And I'm using mobians to describe the collective anthros in the Sonic world. So even if there were humans on mobius when that was still a thing, the point would still stand that the two species are different on nearly every fundamental level.

RaceProUK wrote:Well, that's not how it came across, but now you've clarified, let's get back to the topic at hand.

So I was wondering where exactly people see the line with all this inter-sapient-species stuff. Take this hypothetical for example:
  • There's this human guy, he's a pretty typical human-guy type of human guy, let's call him Rob.
  • Next up is an anthropomorphic vixen called Hanna; she's about the same age and height as Rob.
  • And finally, we have an alien called Maria, who just happens to look like an anthropomorphic lynx, but is actually an alieny sort of alien that just happens to be a cute fuzzball.
  • All three are fully sapient, legally sane, and of consenting age.

My question is this: what makes Rob and Hanna an objectionable pairing, but Rob and Maria OK? And for the bonus round, what about Hanna and Maria?


First of all, let me apologize for putting you off earlier.

Second, you're using logic to debate feelings and that's a no go. I can't argue againist that because Hanna by definition is basically a human with fur, vixen ears and a tail and Maria is basically that from space. So if I can't come up with a valid reason to argue againist Robanna, then I have no right to say that human-anthros relations are wack, my opinion, and that's more or less bigotry. And everybody's got a right to their onions.
User avatar
Azul
BumbleKnight
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:43 pm
Location: Somewhere, USA

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Mordum » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:27 pm

Azul wrote:At the same time, refering to either of them as human would be fallacious because to me it sounds like you're saying in a fictionalized setting that sentience and free range of thought is primarily a human quality and any species that posses it is defined as human-like in universe when saying so would be incorrect because it's a trait both species share. It'd be no different then saying that the humans of Sonic's world are hedgehog-like due to their snarky attitudes. It's really a debate about semantics.


It's not really an argument where the semantics are a significant component. Also, Sonic is the only hedgehog in the game universe who's actually snarky. Actual hedgehog-exclusive traits would probably whatever bizarre association Sonic, Shadow, and Silver seem to have with mystical artifacts.

Me being a snarky know it all aside...why CAN'T you say that humans are actually hedgehog like because such and such? For all we know, humans are a late addition to Sonic's World compared to everything else. Maybe humans ARE hedgehog-like. Maybe humans are bat-like. Maybe "human" is just, in the eyes of Sonic's World, just another type of animal person.

That's my point. There's never any acknowledged significant difference. You could easily argue that they just see human as another type of animal-type person and it'd actually make way more sense than insisting some type of divide that we've never seen. It doesn't really matter where the semantics land because you just come to the same conclusion, whereas most semantic arguments needlessly complicate finding a solution. These just make the conclusion easier to point out, if anything.
User avatar
Mordum
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:58 am

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby RaceProUK » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:13 pm

MetalSkulkBane wrote:I know that on basic level love is just a way for us to reproduce.

Not really; sex is for reproduction. Love is an emotional connection between two people, for instance, the platonic love a father has for his son, or the romantic love a man has for his boyfriend.

MetalSkulkBane wrote:Besides, you know about Vector X Vanilla shipping? He's a reptile and she's a mammal. Shouldn't that be even creepier possibility?

Also slightly supported by Sonic X, at least in the Metarex arc.
User avatar
RaceProUK
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:54 pm
Location: Knothole & Shang Mu

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Azul » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:20 pm

Mordum wrote:It's not really an argument where the semantics are a significant component. Also, Sonic is the only hedgehog in the game universe who's actually snarky. Actual hedgehog-exclusive traits would probably whatever bizarre association Sonic, Shadow, and Silver seem to have with mystical artifacts.


That was actually just a hyperbole. Don't mind my nonsensical nonsense.

Me being a snarky know it all aside...why CAN'T you say that humans are actually hedgehog like because such and such? For all we know, humans are a late addition to Sonic's World compared to everything else. Maybe humans ARE hedgehog-like. Maybe humans are bat-like. Maybe "human" is just, in the eyes of Sonic's World, just another type of animal person.


So the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Well personally, I'd have never thought of it that way because I'm such a narrowminded sunuvagun and take everything at face value. That is to say that I'm the type of guy who doesn't draw conclusions unless I have solid evidence and good reason to do so. I took Sonic's world as our world+, as it's been presented, and in our world hedgehogs have been around for at least 15 millions years and the first human has been speculated to appear about 3.7 million years ago. So it does kind of make sense that some, or possibly all since I've yet to see a normal one, hedgehogs could have had much more time to mutate into walking, snarking, sentient beings before humans have. However, I find it hard to believe that humans would be the dominant species if hedgehogs, or mobians, advanced before them because mobians are basically stronger and tougher humans. Even in numbers, one physically active whatchumacallems can probably tank an auditorium's worth of people. But this is all pure speculation and I could go on but meeeh, Ion feel like it.

That's my point. There's never any acknowledged significant difference. You could easily argue that they just see human as another type of animal-type person and it'd actually make way more sense than insisting some type of divide that we've never seen. It doesn't really matter where the semantics land because you just come to the same conclusion, whereas most semantic arguments needlessly complicate finding a solution. These just make the conclusion easier to point out, if anything.


You got a point, as always. But allow me to play devil's advocate here. If the anthros of Sonic's world are really considered that similar to humans that they feel no need to differentiate, what'd be the point in adding "the Animal" as a part of their name? Why couldn't some of them just operate on a first name basis? Some of them do have first and last names but they appear to be wild cards. Why is it so important that Sonic's full name be Sonic "the Hedgehog" if he's not really that different than Joseph Joestar?
User avatar
Azul
BumbleKnight
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:43 pm
Location: Somewhere, USA

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Mordum » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:48 am

I assume it's a mistranslation, but there's this great bit in Sonic Adventure 2 where Shadow utters my favorite line in all of Sonic: "You're government spy, Rouge the Bat, aren't you?!" He says this to Rouge, obviously. I ASSUME that the actual line is supposed to be something like "You're a government spy, Rouge?", but, since this board is so fond of sticking to surface details as absolutely canonical and indisputable, I'm just gonna play with this line as it's written and executed for the fun of it.

The way the sentence is structured, and the way the line is delivered, Shadow was already aware that there was a government spy named Rouge the Bat (maybe he did a lot of reading while catching up on the present?). But Rouge is also a common enough name for bats that it didn't immediately occur to him that this Rouge might just be the same Rouge as the one allied with the people who killed the most important person in the world to him. The way the scene plays out, Rouge is like the animal version of, I dunno, Sarah or Ashley. Or just the bat version.

It could just be a cultural thing. Even in the real world, names don't always work the same from country to country. Japanese names are surname first, personal name second. So many animals are near-identical to the untrained eye in real life that, from a fictitious perspective, it makes a certain amount of sense that a human-animal's surname would just be their species. It's a logic that actually does track if you think about it. There's also the fact that even Amy Rose herself was initially convinced Shadow was Sonic, and if my 06 memory is doing well I'm fairly certain Sonic and Silver were initially mistaken for each other as well. Despite the designs, we're apparently supposed to buy into the idea that human-animals are actually decently identical.

Family just has a wider definition to human-animals than it does to humans. But asking why their names work differently feels like asking why a Japanese family's names work differently, or why so many Islamic people have Mohammed in their name if not outright being named Mohammed. And the answer is...well, they just do, because that's their cultural deal. The only real weird outlier is Amy Rose and I dunno how to explain that, but all it really suggests is that the option to have a traditional surname is there for human-animals if they want to have one. And most just don't go for it. Given that Amy's not exactly the most progressive girl in the world, she probably really liked the idea behind the surname in traditional human culture: something the woman takes from and shares with the man she loves. Probably picked Rose because roses are pretty; not a complicated girl.

(I'm too lazy to go back and edit, but it only just occurred to me that I could've just stolen the Animal terminology from Wicked and saved myself a lot of hyphens.)
User avatar
Mordum
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:58 am

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby RaceProUK » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:57 am

Mordum wrote:The only real weird outlier is Amy Rose

And Miles Prower :)
User avatar
RaceProUK
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:54 pm
Location: Knothole & Shang Mu

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Azul » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:28 am

Mordum wrote:I assume it's a mistranslation, but there's this great bit in Sonic Adventure 2 where Shadow utters my favorite line in all of Sonic: "You're government spy, Rouge the Bat, aren't you?!" He says this to Rouge, obviously. I ASSUME that the actual line is supposed to be something like "You're a government spy, Rouge?", but, since this board is so fond of sticking to surface details as absolutely canonical and indisputable, I'm just gonna play with this line as it's written and executed for the fun of it.

The way the sentence is structured, and the way the line is delivered, Shadow was already aware that there was a government spy named Rouge the Bat (maybe he did a lot of reading while catching up on the present?). But Rouge is also a common enough name for bats that it didn't immediately occur to him that this Rouge might just be the same Rouge as the one allied with the people who killed the most important person in the world to him. The way the scene plays out, Rouge is like the animal version of, I dunno, Sarah or Ashley. Or just the bat version.

It could just be a cultural thing. Even in the real world, names don't always work the same from country to country. Japanese names are surname first, personal name second. So many animals are near-identical to the untrained eye in real life that, from a fictitious perspective, it makes a certain amount of sense that a human-animal's surname would just be their species. It's a logic that actually does track if you think about it. There's also the fact that even Amy Rose herself was initially convinced Shadow was Sonic, and if my 06 memory is doing well I'm fairly certain Sonic and Silver were initially mistaken for each other as well. Despite the designs, we're apparently supposed to buy into the idea that human-animals are actually decently identical.

Family just has a wider definition to human-animals than it does to humans. But asking why their names work differently feels like asking why a Japanese family's names work differently, or why so many Islamic people have Mohammed in their name if not outright being named Mohammed. And the answer is...well, they just do, because that's their cultural deal. The only real weird outlier is Amy Rose and I dunno how to explain that, but all it really suggests is that the option to have a traditional surname is there for human-animals if they want to have one. And most just don't go for it. Given that Amy's not exactly the most progressive girl in the world, she probably really liked the idea behind the surname in traditional human culture: something the woman takes from and shares with the man she loves. Probably picked Rose because roses are pretty; not a complicated girl.

(I'm too lazy to go back and edit, but it only just occurred to me that I could've just stolen the Animal terminology from Wicked and saved myself a lot of hyphens.)


Although I don't necessarily agree that Rouge would be a common name, because I'm just an antagonistic person, this does seem to hold up. I don't want to refutre any of this a truly fact but I will regard some of thism as a possibility. Like I said before, this is all pure speculationg and the possibilites can go in many directions due to the lack of an answer. Like, who's to say Amy didn't have a last name before she met Sonic? But it is a definite possibility that the anthros can just choose one, just like it's a possibility it can be inherited.

Good conversation, 10/10.

RaceProUK wrote:
Mordum wrote:The only real weird outlier is Amy Rose

And Miles Prower :)


Yes, this too.
User avatar
Azul
BumbleKnight
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:43 pm
Location: Somewhere, USA

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby ToaArcan » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:08 am

RaceProUK wrote:Also slightly supported by Sonic X, at least in the Metarex arc.


I'd like to point out that X also put Tails with an asexually-reproducing vegetable. Their romance standards are clearly a little skewed.

With regards to the debate, this seems to be getting toward a case of "Would you pork a Mobian?" I'd like to stop and consider how Sonic must look to someone in his world: A tall animal-person thing with a single bulbous, two-pupiled eye, carried on scrawny limbs that very often lack joints and just look like noodles. Try walking slowly in Smash 4 and see how weird Sonic's legs look.

Here's a sapient, intelligent, understandable creature that can give consent. It's also an eight-foot tall slime monster with a vaguely humanoid shape. Still think a relationship between it and a human is a good idea? Sonic and co. look cute and fuzzy because they're cartoons. But need I remind you of the realistic fanart, and now creepy that tends to look?
User avatar
ToaArcan
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:13 pm
Location: Right behind you

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby RaceProUK » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:42 am

ToaArcan wrote:
RaceProUK wrote:Also slightly supported by Sonic X, at least in the Metarex arc.
I'd like to point out that X also put Tails with an asexually-reproducing vegetable. Their romance standards are clearly a little skewed.

They do make a cute couple though, you have to admit :)

ToaArcan wrote:With regards to the debate, this seems to be getting toward a case of "Would you pork a Mobian?"

I wouldn't; being 6'1", and with average Mobian height being around the 3' mark, the height difference alone would make it really weird. However, if you were to change the question to "Would you love a Mobian?", then I can think of a few answers.
User avatar
RaceProUK
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:54 pm
Location: Knothole & Shang Mu

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby ToaArcan » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:46 am

RaceProUK wrote:They do make a cute couple though, you have to admit :)

I wouldn't; being 6'1", and with average Mobian height being around the 3' mark, the height difference alone would make it really weird. However, if you were to change the question to "Would you love a Mobian?", then I can think of a few answers.


Actually, I'd sya that they really, really don't.

Well, some preboot Mobians were taller as adults, like Max, IIRC.
User avatar
ToaArcan
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:13 pm
Location: Right behind you

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Mordum » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:45 pm

ToaArcan wrote: I'd like to stop and consider how Sonic must look to someone in his world:


Nothing indicates he looks weird to anybody.
User avatar
Mordum
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:58 am

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Azul » Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:18 pm

ToaArcan wrote:
RaceProUK wrote:They do make a cute couple though, you have to admit :)

I wouldn't; being 6'1", and with average Mobian height being around the 3' mark, the height difference alone would make it really weird. However, if you were to change the question to "Would you love a Mobian?", then I can think of a few answers.


Actually, I'd sya that they really, really don't.

Well, some preboot Mobians were taller as adults, like Max, IIRC.


Not King Max. He was about as tall as Sonic. Vanilla and Vector are prime examples of taller adults and also defeats the notion that height soley depends on species.
User avatar
Azul
BumbleKnight
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:43 pm
Location: Somewhere, USA

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Mordum » Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:50 pm

RaceProUK wrote:
Mordum wrote:The only real weird outlier is Amy Rose

And Miles Prower :)


Missed this last time.

It's really weird that I forgot that.
User avatar
Mordum
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:58 am

Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby RaceProUK » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:12 pm

Azul wrote:Not King Max. He was about as tall as Sonic.

Post-reboot he is; pre-reboot though, and definitely in SatAM, Max is taller by some margin (he's definitely taller than Sally, and she's Sonic's height).

Mordum wrote:
RaceProUK wrote:
Mordum wrote:The only real weird outlier is Amy Rose

And Miles Prower :)


Missed this last time.

It's really weird that I forgot that.

Not helped by the fact that no-one uses that name for him normally no doubt :)
User avatar
RaceProUK
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:54 pm
Location: Knothole & Shang Mu

PreviousNext

Return to This Side of Mobius



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests