Change of tone in sonic comics?

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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby Sam Z.G. » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:32 pm

There were several intense moments of the preboot era, like: Jeofrey's trial and giref for his wife, Eggman insane, Scourge's abuse on the jail, the drama of sally's robotisation. For me this is what separated this comic form Soobydoo and ben10 adaptation books.

I do enjoy the humor and adventure note of today, but it's getting tiresome when there's not a reak feeling of danger and development. It looks that it's gonna be like this for a while.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby Village » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:36 pm

Sam Z.G. wrote:There were several intense momoments of the preboot era, like: Jeofrey's trial and giref for his wife, Eggman insane, Scourge's abuse on the jail, the drama of sally's robotisation. For me this is what separated this comic form Soobydoo and ben10 adaptation books.

I do enjoy the humor and adventure note of today, but it's getting tiresome when there's not a reak feeling of danger and development. It looks that it's gonna be like this for a while.

When there is no action in your action comedy, its hard to appreciate the comedy prt.


Mordum wrote:
MetalSkulkBane wrote:Technically it doesn't, but then why make new world in a first place?


I'd make the sincere argument that Boom's setting, between the games, cartoon, and comics, is actually way more well defined than the main games' ever have been. Lyric and D-Fekt are two distinct, visually interesting villains that aren't just the reuse of a stock archetype and the TV show and comics, set in the same general continuity and mythology, have a nice little society of supporting characters who AREN'T there to permeate the exact same type of thing we've already seen.


I would argue you are wrong, because none of those things have any actual effect or expound upon anything that happens in the cartoon, which is the main thing. Where nothing happens.

Question, why do you think so many people asked for shadow so much in boom, Mike pollock made a song about? yeah, he's popular as @#$%. But the reason is, if shadow shows up, something is actually going to happen. A stake, a conflict... an actually bad or good thing. Character development, in the cartoon , which is the only thing that seems to matter, which as currently... nothing happens... in. There is no world or lore established as you said, because this has no effect on the cartoon or nore does the cartoon represent anything in the games. Nothing happens.

Not saying the show isn't doing well, i'm just saying the criticisms, of booms world. Or lack their off , have basis in reason.

Mordum wrote:
MetalSkulkBane wrote:Preboot said


It's catching on!

And when we have Sonic Boom, a prequel to cartoon, that doesn't explain one thing about this new world, with story as basic as it gets. I mean, they added hub world with talking characters, that's perfect excuse to talk about Ancients or new world.


I have to ask though. Why does this matter?

Why does the setting really have to be explained? It's not like the main games have existed in any sort of consistent setting: they have vague backstory baggage from different game plots, but they're hardly a really developed setting.


Because its interesting, having a developed setting is something i think sonic lacked, but the comics had for a while that kept them way more interesting than the games.

And to be honest, its good for business. The internet age has allowed for the almost instantaneous gain of knowledge of any subject you wish to get into. Which has made lore and fan bases way bigger than they have been, and it has been working its way into a myriad of things, over the years . It made MLP so big, having stakes.. and things happen, and people change. That they made the head writer on that thing start creating lore and stuff for its other franchises for girls and stuff, because it makes money. Having world for people to invest in allows for people to spend their cash and enjoy a pletheora of products, not just one. Why do you think super heroes movies got big all of a sudden. As soon as the world allowed for people to just google anything they were curious about in a super hero flick, Boom all of a sudden the almost century old unpenetrable Juggernaut known as super hero comics, were not only penetrable, but marketable. Now not only could you market your regulars easier, you could market heroes you could even dream of before. Like a racoon, a tree, an african king who wears a panther custom, and magical ex-surgeon dr who. Also aquaman, AQUAMAN. ahem.

Giving people something to invest their mind quarters into gets people to stick round, and buy things. And from the start that what boomed seemed like it was going to be.

Like I said before I have no idea where boom is going, but given the statements the animation studio themselves have given about certain subjects, they have no intention or plans at this moment to make any of anything matter at all.

And I think thats bad, because the cartoon is the focus... and it isn't selling anything else, or being anything.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby The Jazzyman » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:49 pm

Sam Z.G. wrote:There were several intense momoments of the preboot era, like: Jeofrey's trial and giref for his wife, Eggman insane, Scourge's abuse on the jail, the drama of sally's robotisation. For me this is what separated this comic form Soobydoo and ben10 adaptation books.

I do enjoy the humor and adventure note of today, but it's getting tiresome when there's not a reak feeling of danger and development. It looks that it's gonna be like this for a while.


This is exactly what I have been trying to say!
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby SonicSoul » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:15 pm

Personally I thought all that stuff was boring.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:41 am

SonicSoul wrote:Personally I thought all that stuff was boring.


It varies from person to person. I liked those stuff (except Scourge in jail. You seen one abusive jail, you seen them all.)
But for me Mecha Sally arc had two moments that moved more than anything
1 Issue 234. This one only Sonic issue that made me shed a tear.
2 Max refusing Nagus offer. All my live I hated that old jerk, only for this scene to make me realize how tired he must be with his life, being antic in new world, failing on every step, betrayed by so many and now losing kingdom and daughter.
And those moments were only possible on Sonic most mature territory. Now in this lighter universe I have other things to like, but (for now) I can forget about as equally heavy moments. No, tragedies or Eclipse or Ellidy aren't equally strong. Those characters are too new, I knew nothing about dead characters.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby Starsy » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:32 am

I think character rivalries felt more intense before the reboot. Like when Scourge stole Fiona from Sonic in #172, I was actually invested in the subsequent fight because Sonic's pride had been hurt - not to mention what happens to Tails. The comic doesn't really want to acknowledge harsher character interactions anymore which - I think - results in it being less interesting to read. The plots seem to revolve more around objects and mcguffins instead of around character motivations etc.

People might say that Sonic turning into a werehog is 'dark', but within like 2 minutes of him changing he's all fine and none of his friends have been hurt. There was no character consequence for it happening which I thought was disappointing. I still enjoy scenes with Eggman for obvious reasons :) but it'll never be as good as it was when he had that awesome dynamic with Snively and his Grand Masters.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby Mobotropolis » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:22 am

I do enjoy the humor and adventure note of today, but it's getting tiresome when there's not a reak feeling of danger and development.

This is exactly how I feel.

The first two years of Ian's run so much happened. Characters were revamped into bigger threats, characters got hitched, characters broke up, cities destroyed, cities built, new governments formed, and there were many changes to the Status Quo. That was all accomplished through a series of smaller and easier-to-digest stories. It felt good because if I didn't like the characters, theme, or story of the previous arch I could just wait it out and read the next one in 3-4 issues.

It was not so much that it was dark but that we had more diversity in the types of stories being told. We had darker and edgier with stories like The Darkest Storm and Enerjak Reborn. We also had lighter fare like the Stakeout/Ambush (one of my favorite single issues ever) and Bunnie and Antoine's wedding. Then there was stuff in the middle like House of Cards and Fiona's breakup with Sonic that gave the characters a sense of depth and reminded us that there is life outside of battle.

Here it pretty much feels like we're stuck. Like we're skimming the water and not exploring the depths.

Stuff is happening, but it doesn't feel like anything meaningful is happening. I guess the biggest takeaway from what's happening now is that we're going to have about two dozen new recurring characters, mostly Eggman Grandmasters and Affiliations, that we'll be seeing every couple of years or so.

Personally I thought all that stuff was boring.

Even so, if you didn't like what was going on you didn't have to wait a long time for something else to happen. There was a lot to pick and choose from across two books. Eventually something was bound to show up to peak your interests again.

For people who don't like Shattered World Crisis it's going to be a long wait.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby SonicSoul » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:41 am

I only found them boring simply due to having no emotional attachment to the characters in question.

Couldn't stand Scourge to sit through seeing him sort out his problems, Geoffrey being exposed as a back-stabbing jerk wasn't shocking in the slightest, and the Mecha Sally drama just took too long for me to care and even then couldn't be given a decent conclusion to redeem itself due to you-know-who.

So forgive me for finding pre-reboot's so-called "drama" or "tone" underwhelming and while the post-reboot definitely has it's flaws, flows way, way better in terms of pacing and narrative.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby DoNotDelete » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:49 am

Geoffrey St. John never really did anything for me either - and it's gotten to a point for me where characters like Mammoth Mogul and Ixus Naugus seem surplus to requirements/redundant anyway.

I was interested in seeing how the Mecha Sally thing was going to play out though - and Scourge's time in jail was an interesting arc, it's a shame we'll never see what he and his cronies were going to get up to. Not being able to use Scourge anymore isn't a huge loss to the comics though.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby Mordum » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:33 am

Village wrote:I would argue you are wrong, because none of those things have any actual effect or expound upon anything that happens in the cartoon, which is the main thing. Where nothing happens.


I can describe Boom's universe in a way that isn't "random @#$% flung at the screen and pretending it's all cohesive." It's a goofy sitcom town where occasionally a bad guy shows up and there's vague, if rarely relevant, remnants of that mythology.

Question, why do you think so many people asked for shadow so much in boom,


Because he's like Sonic but with black fur and has sad monologues.

There is no world or lore established as you said, because this has no effect on the cartoon or nore does the cartoon represent anything in the games. Nothing happens.


This is like watching Brady Bunch and complaining every single episode isn't the multi-parter with the tiki curse.

Which is how I see Boom. A sitcom that occasionally has something like the tiki curse multi-parter in Brady Bunch or King of the Hill's Propane Boom, Wings of the Dope, et al.

Which feels more classically television to me than the crap that passes for "lore" or worldbuilding in current genre fiction trends.

Because its interesting, having a developed setting is something i think sonic lacked, but the comics had for a while that kept them way more interesting than the games.


At the same time, it really says a lot when story has to be the main draw of your platformer. Since games aren't novels.

And to be honest, its good for business. The internet age has allowed for the almost instantaneous gain of knowledge of any subject you wish to get into. Which has made lore and fan bases way bigger than they have been, and it has been working its way into a myriad of things, over the years . It made MLP so big, having stakes.. and things happen, and people change. That they made the head writer on that thing start creating lore and stuff for its other franchises for girls and stuff, because it makes money. Having world for people to invest in allows for people to spend their cash and enjoy a pletheora of products, not just one. Why do you think super heroes movies got big all of a sudden. As soon as the world allowed for people to just google anything they were curious about in a super hero flick, Boom all of a sudden the almost century old unpenetrable Juggernaut known as super hero comics, were not only penetrable, but marketable. Now not only could you market your regulars easier, you could market heroes you could even dream of before. Like a racoon, a tree, an african king who wears a panther custom, and magical ex-surgeon dr who. Also aquaman, AQUAMAN. ahem.

Giving people something to invest their mind quarters into gets people to stick round, and buy things. And from the start that what boomed seemed like it was going to be.


Oh Lord.

Superhero comics are the worst example of worldbuilding or mythology humanly possible. And that's not even involving the yearly reboots, etc. that most people complain about. Superhero universes ARE NOT actual settings. They're, again, like the Sonic games: random crap thrown on screen (or panel, whatever) and we're just told they all exist together. It's not a constructed SETTING, it's just a sequence of things that interact. There's nothing really unique that seperates Marvel and DC as universes. And before you turn turbonerd and say something like YEAH BUT

MARVEL HAS THE INFINITY GEMS

DC DOESN'T

Both worlds have the same operative logic. They're the same general Everything setting. And you know what? Those're the most boring @#$% settings humanly possible, milquetoast genre settings where EVERYTHING just happens to exist. Because none of them are any different, they're just there to tell the same type of stories over and over again, and this freedom to supposedly do anything just means writers and artists explore the same tired crap over and over again, ad infinitum.

The Marvel movies are a break out success, but you know what? The movies are hot garbage, as far as I'm concerned. I like maybe two of them, and that's all DESPITE their connection to "LOOOOOOORE", not because of it. The Marvel Cinematic Universe is a terrible example of this stuff being good because it's NOT good. As much as you praise the embracing of the wealth of backstory these characters have, why does the series have a Thor who's completely divorced from Donald Blake (y'know, the stuff that actually makes Thor a Marvel character?)? For all the banking they have on Marvel mythology and presenting this big, consistent universe full of characters, the whole thing as a STORY really does just amount to "a sequence of things that happen" and no real thematic heft, genuine intrigue (because characters can't grow TOO much), and just shoving stuff from the comics you recognize down your throat (but only RECENT stuff, mind you, because adapting stories from before a lot of the target audience was born would just be too crazy). There is nothing unique about these settings, they're not interesting on their own, and most of the stories they propel are just boring crap that PRETEND they have all this big, wide scope.

When I think of stuff like setting, lore, and mythology and its benefits I think about...y'know, Tolkein's Middle Earth cycle. The Lovecraft Circle. The Holy Bible and its various permutations. Ancient mythology. I don't think about My Little Pony. I don't think about Marvel Comics. I don't think about Sonic. I don't think about Avatar: The Last Airbender. And I like Sonic and Avatar quite a bit, but I recognize their settings for what they are: archetypal excuse plots, not well defined settings in their own right. Nor are they necessary intrinsic to stakes.

But that's the thing. Complaining about Boom not having these big stakes is like complaining every episode of The Brady Bunch isn't like that story with the cursed tiki head. But as far as SETTING goes? Yes, I'd argue Boom is a bit more cohesive overall, because it's not an endless barrage of random crap that pretends to be some nuanced universe just because it has multiple instances of different things. Boom's setting is consistently portrayed as a silly sitcom town, and occasionally the Megalo Mart blows up. Which feels like a bit more of a real place than AND THEN THIS DOOMSDAY PROPHECY

And yet, as I say all that, I actually do prefer the apocalypse of the week as far as my Sonic goes. But I don't see that as "lore" or intrinsic to setting. Nor do I see much of the Sonic comics, that I really enjoy, as being this place defined by the appeal of its setting. Nothing about it is unique when compared to other genre fare. I care about stories concerning these specific characters. The setting is very often incredibly derivative and besides the fact, but that's not really a problem. There's nothing WRONG with Sonic's World not being a unique place where the setting is the selling point, because the setting ISN'T the selling point. It's not like the generic setting of Buffy was the selling point, it was the excuse plot for character stories.

And that's all Sonic's setting is. An excuse plot for characters. That's all it needs to be, but saying a sitcom needs that too is a bit silly. Boom's setting is more defined and cohesive overall, and it's not much of an excuse plot at all. It's just a place where things happen.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:13 am

Village, Mordrum, you both said things that I don't agree with about lores in Marvel/Avatar/etc, but I'll focus on Sonic.

First of all I think that we're using different definition of Lore. I think about lore as informations about characters and places (example: Silver is from apocalyptic future, Lost Hex is... something), while Mordrum seems to count only things on macro scale, a world wide setting. Example: Dr Who has a rules about how time travel works. In comics it's changes from issue to issue, so there is no lore there.
Do I got that right? (That's how I understood you, but then again, I think that Avatar Aang does have your Lore)

But ignoring that, does Boom needs lore, in any form? Cartoon doesn't. Like Mordrum said, it's just a comedy show.
I'm more conflicted with games. I mean, this has a story to tell here. Then again, Spyro or Crash Bandicoot don't have any kind of Lores to themselves and they worked with their original trilogies.
In the end I guess I would let them slip except for the two things
1 Only because it doesn't need lore, it doesn't mean I like story in this games. I find it weak.
2 I still feel like reboot was kinda pointless.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby Meliden » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:34 am

Rise of Lyric definitely needed more to it. Unlike Sanzaru's effort, the cartoon and the comic, it was billing itself as a more engaging adventure game, and promised things that were cut in production (although some things were still alluded to but never addressed, like the statues that resembled Sonic and Knuckles). Being thrown in there with no introduction to anything and no clue what to do after you've freed Lyric was just bad form.

Shattered Crystal, eh, could have done with some but it definitely lodged itself more into the light side of things.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby Village » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:55 pm

Mordum wrote:.

I'm not going to argue with you on this one.

you just declared things weren't things, things didn't mean things, and things are bad, not only in such away that seems like yelling, in way that provided no examples besides " i don't like thing therefore its bad " to the degree in which you make a declarative statement about the MU and the DCU that in any other non comic related forum, what get your @#$% called out for it right quick.

You describe lore, then say it isn't lore and world building because it isn't LOTR and you don't like it.

That was a tantrum. I'm not interested in that, scream at someone else.



MetalSkulkBane wrote:But ignoring that, does Boom needs lore, in any form? Cartoon doesn't.

I think it does, I think it being purely a comedy show is bad. Boom can be something hey could sell for a good long time, however if the show is the focus, and nothing happens, when the show stops... they can't sell anything else. Like many a smart business venture for children, the show isn't the point. The show is for advertising all your other stuff. But when the games aren't good, and the show isn't representing... anything else in this franchise. When the show goes off air... you can't do much of anything else. I think these things need to be working together, so if one goes, the rest can still be a thing. As of right now sonic boom looks like disjointed mess of things, not exactly working with each other, that doesn't seem like its going to last that long.

I want it to do good, the show is doing good. I want the games and toys to do super good too. It just doesn't seem like anyone is working together with anyone right now.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:39 pm

Village wrote:
MetalSkulkBane wrote:But ignoring that, does Boom needs lore, in any form? Cartoon doesn't.

I think it does, I think it being purely a comedy show is bad. Boom can be something hey could sell for a good long time, however if the show is the focus, and nothing happens, when the show stops... they can't sell anything else. Like many a smart business venture for children, the show isn't the point. The show is for advertising all your other stuff. But when the games aren't good, and the show isn't representing... anything else in this franchise. When the show goes off air... you can't do much of anything else. I think these things need to be working together, so if one goes, the rest can still be a thing. As of right now sonic boom looks like disjointed mess of things, not exactly working with each other, that doesn't seem like its going to last that long.

I want it to do good, the show is doing good. I want the games and toys to do super good too. It just doesn't seem like anyone is working together with anyone right now.

...Ok, but why show need this lore? I don't really follow you logic that adding lore would boost sales of games, but whatever. That would help games. But Boom as cartoon doesn't need lore. It's "just a comedy", but people seems to like it that way, so what's the problem?
Sure we could add more game characters, lore and continuity but then Boom cartoon would stop being itself.
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Re: Change of tone in sonic comics?

Postby Mordum » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:41 pm

I really feel like Brady Bunch should've had way more explanation behind that tiki curse, personally.
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