Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

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Re: Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby The KKM » Fri May 08, 2015 1:27 pm

The Taiwan games seem to be allowed since it's just a random Chinese company that was using Capcom's license. Capcom owns it.

The Wonderswan game, meanwhile, was Bandai, who're bigger guys. Bamco owns it.
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Re: Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Fri May 08, 2015 1:47 pm

The KKM wrote:The Taiwan games seem to be allowed since it's just a random Chinese company that was using Capcom's license. Capcom owns it.

The Wonderswan game, meanwhile, was Bandai, who're bigger guys. Bamco owns it.

I wouldn't assume that. Rights don't just disappear because it's a smaller company. It's equally possible that Capcom made a better deal with the Taiwanese company, so they owned everything completely. It's also just a small cameo. I doubt Leonardo Dorado will make a whole lot of other appearances.

Ultimately it's Capcom's property, but things can get murky in the world of licensing. I remember when Dreamwave held the license, someone showed them Ariga's designs and asked if they could be used. They couldn't; it was a different license. I don't think the Dreamwave characters could be used either even though Dreamwave itself is defunct. There are probably different kinds of licenses too. I suspect a lincensed character would be more problematic to use than just cameoing any given official character.
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Re: Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Uwaaii » Fri May 08, 2015 7:55 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Well ... I mean, even if YOU say it still counts, I'd rather hear from someone in the industry.

Like, Archie used the Mayor from Rockman Gold Empire. Gold Empire is a licensed game from Taiwan. You'd think that means licensed characters are a go, but the Wonderswan guys were nixed.

Well of course this is just my opinions. I'm not saying what I say is correct, I'm just telling you what I think is correct.

This is my image of all this (ignore the inaccuracy):
Image
The big license of MEGAMAN goes to CAPCOM, but each series, title, spin-offs and adaptions have their own smaller licenses. It’s like a license inside a license. The game is categorized by series, and the comic is categorized by artists. Receiving the right to use Strategy doesn't automatically allow you to use the Wonderswan. Receiving the right to write a comic on 1-10 does not mean you are allowed to use the Megamix design. You need a separate license for that.

And for the difference between Taiwan Co. and Bandai, as you said it may be in the contract and how much each side had control. Especially because (if I am correct) GE and other games were published by Capcom in PC while WS was published by Bandai in a Bandai console.
Maybe the Mayor just slipped through the cracks. They DID cameo a Zero series character, you know. That's a different property too and she didn't get a new design. The Mega/Gigamix used a Legends robot, EXE generic Navis (which is about the same as what I'm asking about - visual cameos), and Charlie from Street Fighter. The Battle and Chase manga featured Boomer Kwanger and Chill Penguin. There's probably more; I'm not 100% on my Megaman trivia.

So, given the sheer amount of cameos from other franchises in not only Archie, but also others with no visual change I think visually changed characters could very well make a cameo too in the background of something like the robot master tournament or in a robot expo or something. But it's a point I'm very curious about hearing a real answer on. The whole world of licensing fascinates me as do the usage rules surrounding different properties. It could be that you're right and that Capcom's clamped down on cameos since then.

Cameo is called cameo, because you’re including an already established character as fan service. You're not supposed to change their designs. If you did change their design/personality/whatever its not that character anymore. The navigators and DASH robots from Gigamix weren't given any characterization, redesign or interaction with the main story; they were just there for the readers to find and enjoy. I never read the B&C manga but I’m sure Kwanger and the other X robots is just there as minor characters that do not intervene too much with the plot. That’s a cameo. The broadcasters that have their design based on street fighter characters are more like a reference to them than a cameo.

The mayor is from a classic megaman game, and Ms. W/Y is from a classic megaman fanart. The mayor guy is the exact same guy in the game without any change in design except for his name (which he didn’t have). Ms. W/Y’s lower half of her body was hidden and her name unknown, so she needed to be given a redesign and a name; her original and most distinguishable features like her head, hair, shoulder and neck is still there. They are not cameo (OK the mayor may be a cameo) because they are considered classic characters and thus most likely treated the same as other Classic characters such as Kalinka, Cossack, Roll, the RMs, etc.

It’s too risky to have a visually different character with the same name and or similar features. Because Archie got permission from CAPCOM to write the comic, they are also part of this official megaman thing. Tempo, Trio and other characters are OK because CAPCOM don’t have a Tempo.EXE or Trio.EXE or anything making it an Archie-made character. But if they create a character named Meddy or Slur, for example, the readers are going to connect it with the EXE game/anime and may consider it an official counterpart. I think the BN anime named their drilling navi "Drillmache" instead of Drillman.EXE for the same reason.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:As for new characters from official artists, that depends on who you think of as official. Ariga did the cover to Rockman and Forte, does he count? (He also designed Dynamo and Burner.) Because he made Buildman and Judgeman. There were cards based off Shigeto Ikehara's mangas. Does that make him an official Capcom artist? If so he created Karate 003 in the MM6 storyline as part of the tournament - Ariga also used Karate 003 in his own tournament (as an unnamed background character).

I meant OC as in “any robot master/character created by the artist and not appearing in the game” and official artist/writer as “people who worked for CAPCOM and contributed to Megaman (like mentioned in the R20 Complete guide)”, sorry for not being clear there.
Ariga is a freelance artist but he did some of the sprites and cover art for the game, designed some of the RMs, and was hired to write his own version of the Megaman comics; I think it’s pretty safe to call him an “official” artist. Dynamo and Burner were redesigned and included as the official robot master so I don’t really think of them an OC anymore; I do think Judgeman and Buildman (thanks for the info ;)) an OC because they are Megamix-exclusive and designed by the Ariga himself. But the fan-made robot mobs that he included in Gigamix are not his OCs because he did not design them. Ikehara was also hired by CAPCOM to write the manga for the classic and X series for a long time, so I consider him an official (manga) writer too and Karate-003 as his OC. Ariga including Karate-003 as a cameo was for fan service and as a respect toward Ikehara, since he’s like THE megaman manga artist in Japan.
Of course going by that line I consider Dreamwork and Archie as an “official” artist too because they did receive permission from CAPCOM to write their version of the MM series and include their OCs in there (and they're included n the R20 book). So that makes Tempo and any DW-exclusive character their OC.
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Re: Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Fri May 08, 2015 10:17 pm

Okay, disclaimer time. I obviously haven't read anyone's contract. This is guesswork based on observation and what I know about about licences properties elsewhere. I don't think you're quite following me.

The big license of MEGAMAN goes to CAPCOM, but each series, title, spin-offs and adaptions have their own smaller licenses. It’s like a license inside a license

Well ... Capcom doesn't need to licence it's own in-house property, but otherwise agreed.

Why would you separate out a license to a game publisher from a comic publisher? It's all the same to license holder (or so it seems to me). A license is a license. And those PC games weren't published by Capcom. It's a license.

If you did change their design/personality/whatever its not that character anymore.

The broadcasters that have their design based on street fighter characters are more like a reference to them than a cameo.

It’s too risky to have a visually different character with the same name and or similar features. ... But if they create a character named Meddy or Slur, for example, the readers are going to connect it with the EXE game/anime and may consider it an official counterpart.

I’m sure Kwanger and the other X robots is just there as minor characters that do not intervene too much with the plot.


You're contradicting yourself here. You're saying it's risky to cameo a changed character, but NOT an unchanged character. And you're ignoring what I'm actually wondering about.

Your issues with my word choice aside, Ariga used Charlie, and called him Charlie in the Megamix. He was a one panel occasional cameo (or reference if you like that word better, although he was fully shown and named). I think it'd be cool to have the EXE-only guys have the same thing in Archie. No more, no less. You seem to be debating something else, like making Meddy a fully fleshed out character - something I'm NOT asking for.

I'm not even asking for it, really. I think it'd be cool, but I wonder if it's possible.

And I know what a cameo is. ;)

Ms. W/Y is from a classic megaman fanart

Ms. W/Y is from official art commissioned by Capcom. She was made as part of a one-off piece of art. So Ms. Y is all fine to use and not questionable at all. The Mayor was a surprise.

They are not cameo (OK the mayor may be a cameo) because they are considered classic characters and thus most likely treated the same as other Classic characters such as Kalinka, Cossack, Roll, the RMs, etc.

No they aren't the same. Kalinka, Cossack, etc. are all from the official games and go hand-in-hand with a licence. Capcom fully owns those characters.

But characters created under a license - like Expressman, the Constallation Droids, the Wonderswan guys, Brain Bot - they're all different. And it's up in the air whether Archie, or even Capcom, could use them in a game without strings attached. For instance that Ken Penders guy created quite a problem for both Archie AND Sega because he felt he owned those comic characters he made in Archie (and he kinda does after the settlement). So I don't think Capcom could just up and use, say, Expressman without permission. Unless there's something in the contract that allowed it.

But, see, I don't know. And I'd like to. Maybe you're right; maybe Capcom flat-out owns ALL the characters and that Archie has access to ALL the characters. But I don't think it's that simple, otherwise the Wonderswan guys would be okay to use. And I don't think the size of the company has much to do with it.

But the fan-made robot mobs that he included in Gigamix are not his OCs because he did not design them.

No? But most Robot Masters were selected in a similar contest. So I'll have to agree to disagree.
Of course going by that line I consider Dreamwork and Archie as an “official” artist too because they did receive permission from CAPCOM to write their version of the MM series

In that case, there are TONS of non-game Robot Masters out there that you'd consider are form an official artist. Or, at least, a sizable amount. The Megaman wiki has a whole list of comic / manga only characters including Robot Masters. I especially enjoy the Dr. Auto series (by Ariga) and the Marvel VS Capcom series (by some guy who works at Capcom).
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Re: Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Sat May 09, 2015 6:00 am

May not get too many answers on here, as it doesn't seem like Ian knows and I kind of doubt too many others have experience with it.

My guess is that IP division is all a murky business and the main goal is just not to get sued. Content gets sent to Capcom for approval, and a team there who may or may not be that familiar with the material (and may not want to dig through contracts in multiple regions and languages to verify) and so have to try and use best judgement under context, so if it is to err on the side of caution then who could really blame. But it may also have to do with how they want their brand perceived.

More speculation: RFWS game graphics were put into R20, and the game's sound files (which, granted, are just a bunch of remixes of Capcom works) were included in Rockman Sound Box 2, and brief likenesses and descriptions of the robot masters appeared in the ZX games, so it seems Capcom is comfortable using the game's resources in for-profit works. But these were developed in and for Japan initially as was the RFWS game itself so who knows if this comic being made outside that region is the stickler, or if it's using the plot and Bandai original characters specifically and extensively is the line in the sand. But they also may not be able to profit from the game in rereleases in virtual console, and therefore don't care to promote the property regardless. Mega Man has room for so many adaptations already, and there's room for original stories as well, so perhaps they aren't interested in having something like that done in the first place, and therefore why bring it up with Bandai anyway.

I half bet whoever approved L Dorado didn't know the likeness was a reference, but it also seems reasonable that no one is going to take the time and money to chance coming after that IP. I feel like that's how these things happen. They either know its off limits, or they just guessin' like we are.
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Re: Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Sat May 09, 2015 9:44 am

The Wonderswan game would be a little difficult to adapt since it has a feature where you have to physically turn the handheld system around at certain points. It's not exactly a great game either, so they may have felt it wasn't worth it (and they'd be right).
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Re: Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Damo » Sun May 10, 2015 3:06 am

Wonderswan is by Bandai by way of Gunpei Yokoi. I'm saddened to hear that the characters are not available for the comic's use, but not really surprised that the contract wasn't heavily weighed in Capcom's favor. Capcom was dealing with people who knew their way around contracts. And Bandai is still around, so it makes some sense to be careful.

At the same time, the Taiwan games were, if I remember correctly, done by companies that had mainly done small-time educational software. I'd be amazed if the contract wasn't heavily in Capcom's favor, and I think the companies have closed down. We'll have to wait and see, but hopefully Fan and the Constellation Droids are safe for the book to use.

I'd say the real mystery lies with the PC games. The companies that developed and published them are incredibly-out-of-business, and they were marketed as PC ports of the Nintendo games (even using box art from the NES titles). Does that mean that Capcom has the rights? I'd imagine so (especially since nobody filed suit when the boss names like Shark Man got used by Capcom later). But it's not a good idea to count your Pipis before they hatch.

Still, pretty psyched that signs point to Waltz and the other Hideki Ishikawa characters being safe to use.
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Re: Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Tahtorak » Mon May 11, 2015 12:33 pm

The real reason why Gamma has that juggernaut head?

Image

In the Mega Man 3 game, Dr. Wily worked with Dr. Light to create Gamma, so he might have given Dr. Light really convincing reasons to include the parts that would have become Wily-Gamma's head.

Image

Dr. Wily probably planned to have Gamma look like this from the very beginning, but had the blue head implemented to keep Dr. Light from getting to suspicious.

Image

The reason has the juggernaut head in the comics? Maybe Auto was in charge of Gamma's construction and decided to model Gamma's head after his own, but Dr. Light found out and put a stop to it? But it would have been to costly to disassemble it, so he incorporated it into a neck?

I mean, Wily-Gamma's head DOES look a lot like Auto's...

Image

I dunno, I'm just guessing on this part...
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Re: Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Mon May 11, 2015 12:46 pm

Yeah, the smaller robot piloting Gamma within a chopped head is a missed opportunity in terms of design. The only reason that it's there is because it's an autopilot before WIly can take it over.

The art's also odd in that the specs Light shows MM includes the top portion Wily makes to get past Light's safeguards and control Gamma personally. So, maybe, Light never actually completed Gamma as intended? I know Ian commented that Gamma's "head" wasn't "supposed to be a head", but the art completely disregards this idea.
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Re: Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby SonicSoul » Mon May 11, 2015 3:21 pm

I dunno, Wily-Gamma looks more like Guts Man.

And everyone knows Wily has a thing for Guts Man. :wink:
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Re: Mega Man #48 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby The KKM » Mon May 11, 2015 5:06 pm

well, caught up on this. nice writing and concepts, the pencilling really murders any interest or dynamism the story had. sad.
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