Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:57 am

Axel T Rat wrote:=Wily Walker seems to be new entirely unless its supposed to be Wily Machine 3


Spoiler: show
I think the X storyline prevents the two from being one in the same, but given what we know of Mega Man's encounter with it-- that it clearly gave him trouble enough to destroy his helmet and not be destroyed itself, staying around until 21XX-- it's not farfetched to imagine that Wily would borrow some design cues from it for Wily Machine 3, which seems like a scaled down version of it.


--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Zan » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:38 am

=Not entirely sure, but thinking the mesa area might be the same terrain as Hard Man's stage


Based on the Forbidden Area, where both X and Zero were both discovered... it should be in the vicinity of the Rocky Mountains.
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Mega Man Monthly » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:27 am

It's interesting how many people were annoyed by X dashing forward.

The dash is a gameplay mechanic, just like the slide or charge shot, both of which Mega Man was seen using in the very first story arc. We also got Auto in the MM2 arc versus the MM7 arc, Eddie's being built during the MM3 arc instead of the MM4 arc, Dr. Cossack and his Robot Masters came in before the MM3 arc even started, etc. We should all be used to some creative liberties at this point to make the medium fit into the comic book format. And that's the thing... The source material is a video-game, which is heavy on gameplay mechanics like this, whereas a comic book is story-driven. X's leg upgrade is not a story mechanic.

And besides that... logically, it makes no sense. X only needed a specific leg upgrade to use it the dash in the original game. He could dash in his "default" armor from X2 and beyond, and starting with X7, could even air-dash without an upgrade. And when you think about it, it makes no sense that he needs some special leg upgrade to dash at all (ground or otherwise) since it's essentially a jet blast from the bottom of his feet propelling him forward, the same mechanic that allows him to jump so high.

To give his dash any kind of special details in a comic book adaptation is just superfluous and awkward.
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Zan » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:45 pm

The dash is a gameplay mechanic, just like the slide or charge shot, both of which Mega Man was seen using in the very first story arc.


It's not just a gameplay mechanic. Not only is the "emergency acceleration system (optional)" mentioned in X's schematics, the integration of armor part abilities (dash, air dash, buster) into the base form is an important aspect of his limitless evolutionary potential.
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Sunwalker » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:53 pm

I was not annoyed by the dashing, but at first it did seemed a little out of place for me. I was expecting X to get the dash ability during the MMX1 adaptation (which I do hope that happens ;)). Still, I do not find the dashing a big deal.

But the MMX games are not exactly consistent in the writing department, so differences are more than expected. And, regardless of consistence, I would not expect the comic to be an 1:1 game reproduction.
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Mega Man Monthly » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:41 pm

Zan wrote:
The dash is a gameplay mechanic, just like the slide or charge shot, both of which Mega Man was seen using in the very first story arc.


It's not just a gameplay mechanic. Not only is the "emergency acceleration system (optional)" mentioned in X's schematics, the integration of armor part abilities (dash, air dash, buster) into the base form is an important aspect of his limitless evolutionary potential.

Yes, but those are still not actual story details. It's background information, but it's not something that has any particular significance in the story, and modifying that aspect of it in any way is not going to tarnish the mythos. X can (and should) still get armor pieces for his legs in the comic because the concept of armors IS significant... but the leg pieces being tied to the ability to lean forward and glide along the surface of the ground can be changed without consequence. Same goes for the idea of him getting the leg pieces individually; at some point, just let him get the entire armor all at once instead of piecing it together along the way. Getting it one piece at a time serves as a great feature in a video-game, but are we gonna go through this with every adaptation? "New threat. Gotta find me four Dr. Light capsules..."

And besides, logically speaking, it just doesn't make sense outside of a video-game. Why does X need armor pieces for his legs to dash in X1 but never needs it again to do the same thing? Does the mythos actually explain that his base features were modified so he can dash without the upgrade from then on? Why not just modify his entire base to match that armor? The same goes for air-dashing in X7-X8. No more upgrade needed. He can just do it. It makes sense in the video-games because it's tied to gameplay. You level your character up as you play to get progressively stronger. In a comic book, it's silly to portray that concept in such the formulaic fashion as "I found a new item."

And personally speaking, I think that if the X1 adaptation is going to give special attention to things like acquiring each individual little armor piece upgrade, it's going to be a long and boring trip.
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Penguin God » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:02 pm

Yeah, I love the concept of Dr. Light making special upgrades and some armors because he couldn't help himself or he thought X may need them, but a dash is a terrible use of that dramatic potential. It should be reserved for big things, like the Ultimate Armor or the Giga Crush.
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:56 pm

Mega Man Monthly wrote:We also got Auto in the MM2 arc versus the MM7 arc


He could have been there in the games... just off-camera.

Eddie's being built during the MM3 arc instead of the MM4 arc


Well, it wouldn't make sense to have him built during MM4, since he was already active in that game. Rush came in before MM3, too, of course.

Dr. Cossack and his Robot Masters came in before the MM3 arc even started


That's just setting things up for later so it doesn't seem like Cossack and Co. just came out of nowhere, and adds some meaning behind the eventual encounter. Nothing in the games outright contradicts these things like the dash does (not that I'm losing sleep over it, just saying).

And Zan covered the rest, though I will throw in that I figure it's just an artist's error-- maybe it just sort of looks like he's dashing like the games, but he's not really dashing like in the games-- range, speed, etc.

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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Zan » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:38 pm

it's not something that has any particular significance in the story


X's progression of ability, his limitless potential, should not be downplayed in any way.

I think that if the X1 adaptation is going to give special attention to things like acquiring each individual little armor piece upgrade, it's going to be a long and boring trip.


Especially in X1, Dr. Light has his reasons for supplying the armor in parts. X is to properly understand the meaning of power, and always use it for just cause. Furthermore, Iwamoto set a great example on how to deliver the armor, part by part, game by game.
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Penguin God » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:26 am

Zan wrote:
it's not something that has any particular significance in the story


X's progression of ability, his limitless potential, should not be downplayed in any way.

Absolutely agree. But a dash doesn't really change that. It's a neat upgrade, but in terms of growth for a narrative it's pretty lame. The potential, the progression, the piecemeal upgrades. That's all great, and none of it is impacted by him being able to dash. This really seems like the same situation as Mega Man charging his buster or sliding early. Yeah, that's not exactly how the game works, but it's become such a basic intrinsic part of the character and it's such a minor bit: does it really hurt the work to give it to them straight off the bat?
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Zan » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:53 am

Absolutely agree. But a dash doesn't really change that. It's a neat upgrade, but in terms of growth for a narrative it's pretty lame. The potential, the progression, the piecemeal upgrades. That's all great, and none of it is impacted by him being able to dash. This really seems like the same situation as Mega Man charging his buster or sliding early. Yeah, that's not exactly how the game works, but it's become such a basic intrinsic part of the character and it's such a minor bit: does it really hurt the work to give it to them straight off the bat?


It's implied the dash is an ability his base form is capable of, but X himself lacks the skill to do so without aid. Furthermore, high mobility is a key aspect of X's fighting style (see Compendium of RockmanX). Giving him the dash early, not only overpowers early X, it also devalues the individual importance of the leg part. I wouldn't mind if Zero taught him the maneuver (like the triangular kick), but it doesn't seem as if X is even a Hunter yet.

As is, it just seems like a missed opportunity for character development.
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Mega Man Monthly » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:58 am

Zan wrote:
Absolutely agree. But a dash doesn't really change that. It's a neat upgrade, but in terms of growth for a narrative it's pretty lame. The potential, the progression, the piecemeal upgrades. That's all great, and none of it is impacted by him being able to dash. This really seems like the same situation as Mega Man charging his buster or sliding early. Yeah, that's not exactly how the game works, but it's become such a basic intrinsic part of the character and it's such a minor bit: does it really hurt the work to give it to them straight off the bat?


It's implied the dash is an ability his base form is capable of, but X himself lacks the skill to do so without aid. Furthermore, high mobility is a key aspect of X's fighting style (see Compendium of RockmanX). Giving him the dash early, not only overpowers early X, it also devalues the individual importance of the leg part. I wouldn't mind if Zero taught him the maneuver (like the triangular kick), but it doesn't seem as if X is even a Hunter yet.

As is, it just seems like a missed opportunity for character development.

I just can't say I agree. There are plenty of ways to develop a character apart from "here's your leg upgrade, now learn to control the power it gives you." And besides... Mega Man having the slide and charged shot from the get-go definitely didn't hurt anything in the Classic narrative, so I can't see how X being able to dash early will either.

And also, the source material has already been altered to make more logical sense and to make the mythos better fit into the comic book medium. Flynn confirmed in another thread quite a while ago that Sigma is not being written as the first Reploid, despite being confirmed as such as the video-game continuity. The X mythos in general is pretty much a mess, even disregarding the localization inconsistencies, and little of it makes much sense. We should expect (and welcome) creative liberties being taken in the comic book, and I feel like the dash is something that just really doesn't deserve any special attention in a comic book.

And while this concept may have been tackled in manga, a serialized manga is not synonymous with a monthly American comic book, so I don't think it's fair to say "well, if it can be done well in the manga version, it should be done the same way here."

While manga and American comics are both sequential art forms, the release schedules, pacing, length, and general demographic are quite different. Manga can usually afford to fixate on minor details like a leg upgrade because individual chapters are much longer, they are often not bound by strict release schedules, the tankōbons they are bound in are often relatively large, they usually contain one artist and one writer (or one person serving as both), and frankly, the manga demographic is different from the American comic book demographic, so the contents are going to vary based on who you're targeting.

On the flip side, comic books (particularly Archie comics) are monthly releases, the chapters are short, they are usually created with trades in mind (so, 4-6 chapter format to tell a single story arc), and have a large ever-changing production staff. You gotta make a big bang in less the space and time. Plus, manga usually has some kind of end in sight, whereas American comic books usually go on as long as people will read them, so you gotta print something, every month, that is going to keep your readers hooked and draw in new ones.

There just isn't time to fixate on something trivial like "X can now dash thanks to this armor he found" when there are much bigger things to address in the story, and if there was space actually dedicated to receiving this upgrade, it's going to get maybe one page, tops. What kind of character development could that possibly yield?
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Zan » Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:22 pm

I just can't say I agree. There are plenty of ways to develop a character apart from "here's your leg upgrade, now learn to control the power it gives you."


If X is to have his dash ability from the get go (as can be inferred from his schematics), it's not an easy skill to master. Like the triangular kick, it should be part of his training as a Hunter, not something a civilian can perform. Having him dash this early is a missed opportunity for growth from civilian to elite unit captain.

Flynn confirmed in another thread quite a while ago that Sigma is not being written as the first Reploid, despite being confirmed as such as the video-game continuity.


Sigma was never really "the first Reploid", he's "the number one Reploid". In other words, the greatest and strongestin history.

And while this concept may have been tackled in manga


It does not seem that you know how the armor parts were handled in Iwamoto's manga.

I'll elaborate:
X1: 3 separate armor parts given by capsule in response to direct challenges ahead of X. A buster upgrade is given to Zero instead, for X to inherit in his passing.
X2: Dr. Light appears as he does in X5's ending: a mysterious ghostly entity that bestows armor data to X even when he's unconscious. X's body, by limitless evolutionary potential, generates the armor without need for a capsule.
X3: Reformed Doppler Mavericks aid X by tracking down the armor parts in their respective stages, offering it to him in his most dire time of need.
X4: Ultimate Armor.


What kind of character development could that possibly yield?


From X's early struggles as a Hunter, to the mysteries of his limitless potential, a lot. If Flynn chose to go down that route, X's inability to dash would also have greatly affected an early battle against the traitor Storm Eagle.
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Penguin God » Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:47 pm

I mean, I get what you're saying here. Unlimited potential, X going from a pacifist to a wargod pacifist. that's all great. I don't want him to have the most powerful buster in the world with incredible armor right from the get-go either. But the dash... doesn't really show off any of that. It's a dash. He jumps forward. There's no narrative growth to that or potential being unlocked, it's just a really basic technique that is iconic simply because Mega Man doesn't do it.
I get that adherence to the games is important, but really, the story should come first. These aren't game manuals, and many of the details can and SHOULD be fudged if it makes for a more cohesive, tighter world. If X learns a special technique from a hidden capsule where Light wears a headband, it shouldn't be from dying three times on the same spot and then jumping at a cliff at the right moment.

The game story should be intact. The game mechanics do not have the same obligation.
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Re: Mega Man #37 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gonzo » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:05 pm

If the dash is that integral to X's character growth, the comic version could just augment X's existing dash ability. Unless a future X1 arc gets stretched out to twice the normal length, time constraints would probably force X to get the whole suit all at once anyway, I think.
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