MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:01 am

Proto saves Light and Rock from the collapsing castle after clearing his name in 5 and he joins them in the lab to team up and stop the Roboenza virus in 10. I think they have interactions we don't see. But Proto is at peace with his identity and his independence and even if he and Light don't see eye to eye on certain things, they trust each other to put differences aside and do the right thing when it comes to protecting the world. That's what Worlds Collide and Rock of Ages have me expecting. But I was actually talking about Break Man and Mega Man being at each other's throats. I just don't want to see Rock and Blues' relationship regress, just because that's the thing they've been doing for the last 20-some issues. But I'll admit I don't know how we go from Wily in Mr. X's new amazing lab all excited to build a bunch of new robots to "Hey, I wonder what Cossack is doing. I bet if I kidnapped his brat he'll do my work for me."
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby DoNotDelete » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:01 am

El Veinte wrote:But I want to ask you all, is that how you saw Quick Man in the comic? Forget this issue. Look at every one before it.

Those moments they shared, all the character development, it added up to nothing. Less than nothing, because it treats them like those moments never happened at all. It all meant absolutely nothing. Quick's only purpose is to battle Rock and nothing else, it is all that makes his personality. No love of racing. No delight in showing off that speed. No irritation at waiting. No thrill in physical competition. No respect for one's rival. None of those traits that I saw in him. Just pure destruction, that's all Quick wants and acts like it's all he ever wanted. To thwart and discredit Mega Man at every turn. Give him boomerangs or give him death. I have no problem saying I don't like this characterization of Quick, but I liked all those moments before this and I feel like this isn't even the same character here. It's a shocker downer ending to be a shocker downer ending, not because things were building up to this moment from the very beginning and when it happens you say "of course! It could only have happened this way. It was there all along."

Sometimes it's appropriate for a writer to hark back to a character's past storylines in fine detail. Sometimes it's necessary for a writer to focus on a small part of a character's function/purpose/role for the sake of creating debate.

Mega Man 49 was about a debate. Quick Man's function (in this story) was to rebut Dr. Light's and Mega Man's arguments for changing him into something he did not want to be. Not all of Quick Man's history and/or character considerations are relevant to this debate. Remember also that this is a one-issue story and there is not sufficent space for meditations on the entirety of Quick Man's character.

El Veinte wrote:#49. Quick wakes up, tries to battle Rock straight off, acts confused, remembers little to nothing about how the Doc Robot incident ended as though he doesn't remember that Rock saved the IC chips and that their bodies were sealed away intact and that they had asked Rock to revive them. He insults Rock repeatedly, acts freaked out about the notion of reprogramming when none of the others react to the news with such fear or hostility, he gets into an angry argument, makes Rock cry and then sneers with a gleeful smugness as the tears stream down Rock's face, and makes the ultimate declaration through action that he would essentially rather die than fight on the same side as him. Where did any of that come from?

El Veinte wrote:...pessimistic ignorant suicidal robots.

Quick Man had been put in a situation anyone would have difficulty dealing with. Upon being reactivated - and without a means to defend himself - he's immediately presented with a choice: Be reprogrammed or be deactivated again.

If we were talking about human beings the choice would be different: Be lobotomised or be put to death. For robots reprogramming can be reversed with a simple data transfer* - and deactivation can be reversed with the flick of a switch. Not so lobotomisation and death in humans (which - for human beings - are very big ethical/moral debates I'm not going to get into on an internet forum).

But for a robot who values the person that they are, being deactivated is actually the lesser of two evils because being deactivated is not necessarily death for a robot. Quick Man is prepared to play the long game and remain dormant until such time he is reactivated (either by accident or intent). Quick Man comes off as being stubborn (which he is - for the most part), but I'd say that Quick Man is actually being very clever (for a robot).

*Even though reprogramming can be reversed, Quick Man is aware that - once reprogrammed - his perspective may have changed sufficiently that he may have no concept of what 'Quick Man' was and may not desire to have his original programming restored.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:29 am

Mega Man 49 was about a debate. Quick Man's function (in this story) was to rebut Dr. Light's and Mega Man's arguments for changing him into something he did not want to be. Not all of Quick Man's history and/or character considerations are relevant to this debate. Remember also that this is a one-issue story and there is not sufficent space for meditations on the entirety of Quick Man's character.


I would ask why bother to do a debate if you don't have the space or time to actually explore it. I agree this is definitely not a character piece. I would ask what value a character's personality even has if the previously established character development is ignored to suit the needs of a single one-off story. Odd to have Quick Man go on and on about his need to be himself if the whole time he's out of character. It means your character is just fodder that moves whichever way the wind is blowing at the time. I do not admire such an approach to writing. "This character says this because, um, somebody has to or I have to come up with a better story idea." If you do not respect the character's development, it is meaningless. A reader can't be expected to respect a character's thoughts and rights as a complex individual if even the writer doesn't.

If we were talking about human beings the choice would be different: Be lobotomised or be put to death.


If we were talking about humans does that make IC chips their disembodied brains and Doc Robot some kind of human centipede hive mind frankenstein? And now they've had new bodies cloned for themselves that can save their lives but only if they are lobotomized because of a government mandate because of how dangerous they are as humans to.... uh... society, I guess? Are these humans genetically altered super-men created in a lab by an evil genius?

Good thing that we are not talking about human beings because all of this would make even less sense if we were. Which begs the question of what the point is again of raising this "controversy" when truthfully the issue of whether it is okay to reprogram bad robots into good ones was 1. already kind of established that Dr. Light has no problem with this because robots are different than people and not responsible for making these choices and 2. everything was set up that these robots could have or perhaps should have been ready and excited for a new lease on life.

But for a robot who values the person that they are, being deactivated is actually the lesser of two evils because being deactivated is not necessarily death for a robot. Quick Man is prepared to play the long game and remain dormant until such time he is reactivated (either by accident or intent). Quick Man comes off as being stubborn (which he is - for the most part), but I'd say that Quick Man is actually being very clever (for a robot).


More like crazy, because he agreed to it when he had no idea what they will do with his body or his circuits and there wouldn't be any reason to keep his IC chip from being recycled. this is a fool's gambit. His last revival was from miraculous alien technology. With Wily presumed dead and Ra Moon gone, there is no reason to think he would ever be reactivated. If he's counting on Shadow Man or something then how they communicated that through telepathy is amazing, but Quick also can't be sure that Shadow won't be reprogrammed right afterward and not follow through with it. Especially if Guantlet is right and they are going to be reprogrammed again after agreeing to a new life. It's not some clever long con. It's a final stand over an issue that he didn't even have before. We already did the fear of reprogramming/robot autonomy thing with Blues, didn't we? Did we need a sloppier version with undertones of euthanasia, depression and suicide? People in this thread are afraid to talk about those issues even, so what debate is there? Just seems edgy for the sake of edgy.

I'm debating how poorly I think these issues are handled...
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:41 am

I gotta say you've brought in a host of issues and I don't think I'll follow you into them in the same depth. It's really not necessary.

A lot of the illogic I see in your arguments is that we all know what Light's about. This is a decades old game series with long established characters. Established characters that haven't really changed in this series; Ian seems to be doing his best to stick to official profiles. So we know your interpretation is incorrect. We know Light will not suddenly heel turn and display a fault that will veer his character into new territory. And it's clear this issue is about the aftermath of MM3 for Wily's robots.

So he either decided now that he was wrong all along or he's being hypocritical of his own viewpoint

I agree [that the situation is absurd], so I wish Ian hadn't done that


So, you agree that the situation you've put forth is absurd and that, in your interpretation, Light is a hypocrite. Since we know Light isn't supposed to be a hypocrite and since you agree the situation you put for is absurd, and we know what the issue is supposed to be about, I don't see why you insist your interpretation is actually correct.

Essentially your entire argument hinges on interpreting the opening sequence in a way that is clearly not intended and extrapolating an entire narrative based on that.

"We disabled your weapon systems in case Dr. Wily's programming wasn't fully purged."
"That's why we're rebuilding and reprogramming you--to give you a second chance!"


So, these quotes. Firstly, Dr. Wily programmed their personalities. So Dr. Wily's programming can never be fully purged if we take this as literally as possible. If his programming was fully purged then they'd be blank slates and this debate wouldn't happen. Secondly, you've focused on "reprogramming" and not "rebuilding." Well, the robots haven't been rebuilt. The 2s were in mint condition when retrieved and the 3s weren't totally destroyed. They may have been repaired, but not rebuilt.

These are flaws within the dialogue of the opening sequence. There's no reason to home in on the talk of "reprogramming" any more than there is of rebuilding or purging. None. It might have been written better, but that's not really the point of the issue. And that's the main problem with your lengthy analyses. Just based on the quotes your have provided yourself we can see the set up dialogue isn't literally accurate and can't be literally accurate. Since the dialogue can't be taken with literal accuracy it makes sense to just go with what seems to be the point of the issue. Otherwise you wind up with a conclusion that makes no sense.

I agree, so I wish Ian hadn't done that, but that is what Mega Man said. And honestly, having just as many Wily bots change their spots so readily is equally dubious in its own way if these robots aren't responsible for their own ethical decisions as Light maintained at all times before. I guess nobody, not even Light, knows where the line is drawn.


Or Ian just wrote the dialogue in a somewhat clumsy way that could be misinterpreted by some people. It's kind of ironic. By putting so much stock in the dialogue it seems like you're simultaneously putting too much faith and too little faith in the writing here. Too much faith - that thinking confusing dialogue is fully intentional and is meant to be followed exactly as written. And too little - that Ian would actually portray Light in a way vastly inconsistent with prior issues and everything we know about him outside the series. The exact right amount of faith would be seeing that the issue centres around the debate Light and MM have with the robots and deciding that the opening dialogue is just a little clumsy.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Astrobot7000 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:38 am

The weirdest part about all of this is that Wily programed some of his robots to even consider such a thing. If I was making an armed and dangerous battle robot, I certainly would not program it in such a way as to allow it to submit to be reprogramed. It really is crazy. Wily's programing never makes any sense, and the ridiculous personalities he programs into his robots are beyond goofy. Why program a robot to have hair envy? Also, 99% of the robots do not even have hair, so why single out one to have this odd personality flaw? None of it makes much sense. I guess I'm just rambling and digressing, but at least Quick Man's actions make sense to me. Wily should not have programed his robots to even consider being reprogramed by anyone but himself. The mere fact that some are allowing it is crazy to my sensibilities.

But, none of that has to do with the issue itself, which was one of the best issues of the series thus far, in my opinion.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:44 am

Astrobot7000 wrote:The weirdest part about all of this is that Wily programed some of his robots to even consider such a thing. If I was making an armed and dangerous battle robot, I certainly would not program it in such a way as to allow it to submit to be reprogramed. It really is crazy. Wily's programing never makes any sense, and the ridiculous personalities he programs into his robots are beyond goofy.

I know right? And why make robots that could hurt each other? He knows Megaman can copy weapons, so why make a heat guy AND a wood guy AND a water guy? Maybe he couldn't foresee the rest of the robots in the cycle, but these guys should obviously lend themselves to weaknesses.

In Gigamix Ariga has Wily as actually agreeing with Light's stance on free-determining robots and wants to make a better place for robots (if I remember right, it's been a while). Buuuuut that doesn't really jive with Archie's Wily (or even robots that get stolen or reprogrammed, if I think about it).
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby DoNotDelete » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:50 am

El Veinte wrote:
DoNotDelete wrote:If we were talking about human beings the choice would be different: Be lobotomised or be put to death.

If we were talking about humans does that make IC chips their disembodied brains and Doc Robot some kind of human centipede hive mind frankenstein? And now they've had new bodies cloned for themselves that can save their lives but only if they are lobotomized because of a government mandate because of how dangerous they are as humans to.... uh... society, I guess? Are these humans genetically altered super-men created in a lab by an evil genius?

Good thing that we are not talking about human beings because all of this would make even less sense if we were...

I made a parallel with human beings because you're ascribing human considerations to a robot character - suggesting that - for robots - deactivation is synonymous with death. Is it?

El Veinte wrote:Give him boomerangs or give him death.

El Veinte wrote:...he would essentially rather die than fight on the same side as him.

I don't think at any point Quick Man associates deactivation with death and - be it through some leap of blind faith or just resigning to the inevitable (having already been rebuilt/reactivated a couple of times) - he at least considers deactivation a better option than being reprogrammed.

Yes, humans can see themselves and human issues paralleled in stories about robots, but we can also try to understand how things are different for robotic characters: Is deactivation synonymous with death for a machine? Do machines face deactivation with the same terror humans face death? Does the passage of time mean the same thing to a machine as it does to a human? etc.


Astrobot7000 wrote:The weirdest part about all of this is that Wily programed some of his robots to even consider such a thing. If I was making an armed and dangerous battle robot, I certainly would not program it in such a way as to allow it to submit to be reprogramed.

That's an interesting point. It could be that Quick Man's defiance is some kind of 'subconscious' self-preservation programming taking effect.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby lalalei2001 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:16 pm

It'd technically be possible to back up their personality in case something went wrong, but that's another can of worms.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Sunwalker » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:07 pm

lalalei2001 wrote:It'd technically be possible to back up their personality in case something went wrong, but that's another can of worms.

That opens more interesting questions. What if their personality were restored into a new body without deactivating the old body. Would those robots be the same person or just different people with exactly the same memories? And if the old body is deactivated before, wouldn't this be just killing the original individual just to create a second one who just thinks to be the original?

I agree with the proposition that transferring the memories is just illusion of immortality. But this still leaves open the question of what makes one's self, what makes you being you and not another individual. As far I know, this is yet an unanswered question for robots and humans alike. When discussing sentient robots, it is unavoidable to end up bringing human beings, since what sentient robots tries to accomplish is to replicate human life.

Robots presumably have the same body, unless some part is replaced. But with humans, the cells of the human body are constantly dying and being replaced by new ones. So after some time the molecules and atoms of the body aren't the same as a few years ago, so in a sense this might count as getting your individuality into a new body. But one still remains to be the same individual, somehow. Not just the atoms of the body change, but the way they are bonded to each other also changes through life. The body keeps changing since before and after the birth, even the brain, which doesn't get fully developed until mid-twenties. This also might count as getting a different body. However, even then someone still remains to be the same individual.

So, in short, I do not really think that it is possible to transfer the individuality from one place to another, be it with humans or robots. Somehow the individuality is "locked" into the same place.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:58 pm

It would be interesting to see an issue about robots being copied. The games imply copies are possible - MM1 and MMV both seem to involve armies of robot masters as Wily's endgame (multiple copies of Guts and the RM Killers are found everywhere in his fortress). But no fiction has ever addressed the issue of a true copy and whether it'd be the original. The copy has always been corrupted in some way, so it's not really the same.

In theory the copy should be just as good as the original. After all, unlike humans, robots could be mass produced. And there's no reason they shouldn't be if you think of them just as tools.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby lalalei2001 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:12 pm

The thing with a copy or backup would be when it was backed up--say a robot was badly damaged, but the backup's memories were form months ago. Another issue would be if the original robot wanted to be backed up or not, and whether or not they'd see a backup as a new personality, overwriting their old personality, or some mix of the two.

I would like to see a 'good' copy or clone, though, as well as copies or clones who become their own person/robot, distinct form the original. There aren't many stories like that in fiction.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:21 pm

lalalei2001 wrote:The thing with a copy or backup would be when it was backed up--say a robot was badly damaged, but the backup's memories were form months ago. Another issue would be if the original robot wanted to be backed up or not, and whether or not they'd see a backup as a new personality, overwriting their old personality, or some mix of the two.

I would like to see a 'good' copy or clone, though, as well as copies or clones who become their own person/robot, distinct form the original. There aren't many stories like that in fiction.

In the prequel trilogy to Dune (the ones made be the original author's son) there's a computer ruler called Omnius. This guy is a sentient computer who has multiple copies on different worlds. He keeps things running by making copies and synching them up. At one point another free-thinking robot (the only other in the story) thinks it would be interesting to let one of the copies exist without synchronizing and the two Omniuses wind up disagreeing because the slight differences in experiences end up having a major impact in how they see situations.

I'd love to see how a perfect copy would react in the MM universe. There's already a lot of stuff to fit into the comic just to get it caught up to the games, but it'd still be interesting to see it's take on the subject.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Penguin God » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:34 pm

IC chips explicitly can't be copied or replicated. They're fully unique. Even if you make multiple Guts Man BODIES, only one will ever be the Guts Man we know and love.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Mavrickindigo » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:42 pm

Hm... it seems quite possible that the Robot Masters who were deactivated were done just so they wouldn't show up in Worlds Unite, which would be quite troubling if that is the case.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Penguin God » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:53 pm

Why... why would you even assume that? What possible problem would there be from having all the MM2/3 Robot Masters that having half of them wouldn't also?
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