MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Spectre the Hechidnat » Fri May 29, 2015 10:26 pm

So I understand Madam Y is a fairly minor presence in this issue, but I had a thought about her (spoilered for fan idea)

Spoiler: show
Assuming that Madam Y isn't a robot, which seems to be the most common theory going around, then I could see her being a descendant of Theo and Simone's who has attached herself to her elderly uncle/great-uncle Xander.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:44 am

It seems to me from the very first page (Dr. L logo, installing updates before booting cognition) and Mega Man's exposition that Dr. Light reprogrammed each of the 16 before they were brought online. He was presumably trying to remove any programming that kept them enslaved to Wily's orders and any programming which would have caused them to want to do evil or violent things, like if any of them had an "if I die, you must immediately avenge my death!" Wily protocol. Light and Roll speak in this issue how robots are neither good nor evil, and just do what they are programmed to do, and that Wily programmed them to be bad so none of their previous actions are their fault. In other words, the choices and actions those robots made before that instant did not matter because they were just acting out their programming. And remember too that Dr. Light is the one who insisted previously to Rock in book 2 that none of these robots have true free will to guide them, that they are all controlled by their programming. So the very thing thing that saves these robots from the crimes they committed against Light and all of society is that they were not ultimately responsible for anything, it's just bad programming.

This creates an entire disconnect from the rest of #49 for me because then we do a complete flip. Suddenly Light expects each of these robots themselves to make decisions about their own future that not only should they not be able to make what with lacking that free will and all, but also completely seems to ignore that very concept that if they were not responsible for making their own decisions before, why are they suddenly responsible for their decisions now? If these robots are continuing to make anti-societal, violent or suicidal thoughts, doesn't it all just, again, come back to bad programming?

It makes perfect sense that a robot that is programmed to be evil and hate Mega Man will want to continue to be evil and hate Mega Man if given the choice, because that is what their programming has always told them they should do. However, several of these evil robots now choose to do good things and be useful to others, so either Light did a minimal job of reprogramming them and Wily just never programmed their personalities to be very loyal or very evil to begin with (quite possible knowing Wily), or else Light did a very good job at reprogramming some of these robots, and a very bad job at some of the others.

Quick Man strikes me as a bad reprogramming job, because the first thing he does when he comes online is attack. He expresses clear dislike and mistrust of them all. His speech makes it very clear he doesn't want to be friends with Mega Man, he doesn't want to be on the same side as Mega Man, he doesn't want to help anyone human or otherwise. He is a bad guy, he says it himself in this issue. He only wants to be bad, to continue the pattern of violence and animosity that he has always known (all that "we are built to fight, to beat Mega Man," and "we want to fight but if we fight you it will be slaughter so just go ahead and turn us off" that he only comes up with after seeing Mega Man so happy and despising it--and remember that Quick does not know what his body or his IC chip will be used for so he can not be planning an escape from the robot museum--for all he knows they will all be scrapped or recycled). He is still making "bad Quick Man" decisions that are results of his old programming. So Mega Man suggesting that another reprogramming could fix his feeling is absolutely correct.

I think Mega Man knows, or ought to know even if he can't express it, that reprogramming an evil robot to want to do good is not the same harm as reprogramming a good robot to want to do evil. It is the basis for all these robots' chances at redemption and finding positive lives in society. The good Quick Man would thank them for reprogramming him, for helping him to find a new purpose and happiness even though he didn't previously want it. The bad Quick Man would be furious about it. So why are they letting the bad Quick Man choose?

Quick Man brings up the reprogramming issue, that he's not himself if he is reprogrammed. That is pretty much the entire point. Evil Quick Man was a menace to society, he was destructive even to his own brethren, he was hurting people and robots and putting humanity at risk. He had to be stopped. But if you take away the drive for evil, what is left? That is really the core of the question. Not "does evil Quick Man have a right to continue to be evil because he likes it?" The question is, "Does Quick Man have any uniqueness, any personality traits beyond hating Mega Man and being a villain?" I think he does, but this comic says he does not and I find that very disappointing.

When it comes to robot reprogramming, though they may fear a loss of who they are, the fact is none of the robots so far could immediately tell any difference in themselves. They don't "feel" changed after being reprogrammed. Mega Man could not tell he was being reprogrammed while it was happening in Book 3. Blues could not tell whether he was reprogrammed or not when Wily reactivated him, he had to ask. Tempo does not mourn the loss of her old personality. Some of the first robot masters remember what it was like to have been their reprogrammed selves, but aside from Elec Man situationally wanting to be able to stop the Emerald Spears, it's more a case of their good selves regretting what their evil selves had done because they weren't that person anymore but it didn't change the fact that they had done awful things. At any given time, these robots prefer to be who they currently are, because that is how their programming allows them to feel.

And in fact despite Light's talk about lacking free will, these learning robots can clearly change certain things about themselves due to their experiences. Blues changes his personality completely in becoming Break Man despite not having been reprogrammed (or so we are told), he changes himself as a reaction to his experiences and the world around him. He is not that same naive bot he is born as. Similarly, when he will come to change his own identity again and become Protoman, it will presumably not be because anyone reprogrammed him, but because he has simply changed. What he knows of the world has changed. His relationships with others have changed. Even how he sees himself, what he calls himself has changed. The thing he is running away from, from himself changing, is inevitable. By running away from change he winds up causing himself to change even faster and more dramatically. We can not hope to halt change outside of death (and even then something will happen to our unconscious bodes). Maybe for robots to shut off and sit in a corner gathering dust while their joints and circuits and power cells slowly deteriorate is as close to not changing as you can get. Seems to be what Quick considers self preservation.

Ultimately though, Quick is an advanced and expensive machine. Just making a totally new personality to use that body for the good of others and itself is certainly less wasteful that to just use in as a museum piece, a historical footnote or a curiosity. (Not saying museums don't fulfill an important purpose for learning and appreciating the past and inspiring people, just saying this is a brand new state of the art robot with incredible potential here.) It is correct that it would not be the exact same Quick Man, even if he retained his memories and the non-hateful aspects of his personality, but already this is a reprogrammed Quick Man who is making the decision so honestly this is not the "original" Quick they are talking to anyway. What is the difference if this Quick Man disappears and a new one is born? Doesn't the bad Quick Man get his wish fulfilled to die either way? Because we aren't establishing that the robot has a right to decide what happens to its own body after death, that is still up to Light or the government or whoever takes out the recycling, whatever. The robot museum was Roll's idea submitted as an after thought when the robots had already decided to plug out.

I think this whole affair is pretty hypocritical and weak both for the theme and for the logic involved.

And that goes especially for the MM3 guys, who Light tells in this very issue that they all have a purpose. They seem to be crippled with some critical self-doubt that was not present before, and I can only attribute this again, to Light. Because not only was he responsible for the reprogramming, but he was essentially the human in the drivers' seat when it comes to helping these robots find purpose. It wasn't clear whether everyone was supposed to come up with their own jobs or if they were picking from a list or what, but choosing a career is hard enough for humans that we have guidance counselors to help people figure out what we're good at and what options are out there. These robots are already good at stuff and had jobs in mind before, and yet Dr. Light was a woefully inadequate guidance counselor in this issue. None of these robots who are designed with amazing powers should be talking about how useless and impractical they are. And as said many times before in this thread, even if some of them want to be weapons (which again I don't think is what Quick was saying, after all he does a lot of non-weapon stuff like scouting terrain and building castles for Wily and didn't complain then but I'll go with it here just to prove a point) they can be weapons for good-- military bots, police bots, rescue bots, body guards or security guards, even super-heroes, or if they love fighting Mega Man above all let them be his sparring partners/training bots. There. Easy. Why Dr. Light then chooses to threaten them instead of reason with them and ignore many of their signs of atypical depression or clinging to vestigial elements in their programming, is completely lost on me. Why should he be so eager to reprogram robots one minute and so skittish to avoid even influencing them through a well-explored positive debate the next? I presume these robots had to be programmed to follow some kind of human commands if only by mandate of the government. Could Light have ordered them to try their jobs and see if they liked them before they decided so they could earnestly make informed decisions before resorting to such drastic and permanent solutions?

Unless he just didn't want to. Unless he isn't actually as good as he is pretending to be. Unless he really sees these bots as dangerous robots who invaded his home, attacked his family, destroyed his dreams for Gamma and then blew up his lab. Unless he really does believe that contrary to what he said at the beginning of this issue about their intrinsic neutrality, that some right-minded robots simply prefer to choose evil and the world is better off without them. Maybe he did the best programming job he could already at the start of the issue, and doesn't want to waste his time and emotions on trying to do what he wasn't sure he could successfully do in the first place, to turn born-evil intelligent robots good. Still, it seems disappointing that Wily could reprogram Light's robots to be evil so easily but Light can't successfully do the reverse with robots based on his own designs, and Mega Man had faith that he could. So Light has a seriously misplaced and hypocritical view of intelligent robots, or he's incompetent. Or emotions just got the best of him here. I don't know.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:15 am

That's a pretty flawed analysis.

It assumes a lot about the reprogramming Light did before the issue started and about the robot's feelings on building Skull Castle. And what role they had in building Skull Castle. They may not have complained about it on panel, but that doesn't mean they loved it. You're also assuming that Wily programmed his robots to hate Megaman - the Legends of the Bluebomber arc shows they don't hate him.

Also, you're tossing around the word "bad" and "evil". Being a weapon isn't necessarily 'bad." Quick doesn't want a place in regular society, but that doesn't make him a "bad robot."

Assuming Light reprogrammed them significantly before asking them beyond just disarming goes against everything we know about Light and negates the entire issue. If you assume Quick and the rest make their decisions because Light did a poor job reprogramming them then why did the entire issue take place? To impress Megaman? Roll? The other robots?

I think you're reading too much into a line meant to facilitate a verbal and emotional conflict, assuming a lot about these robots and their motivations, and drawing several conclusions based off of this.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:34 am

I say bad because that's what Quick Man calls himself, on page 6. "Of course not! We're your enemies! We're the bad guys you're supposed to be fight, Mr. Big-Shot Hero!" Capitalization mine but emphasis Archie's. And again on page.. well, they don't really have numbers, but later same issue. "I was built to destroy. To be fast enough and quick enough to take down Dr. Light's golden boy." Those are all his words. It doesn't sound to me like "I'm too proud of a noble warrior to be useful in peacetime" it sounds like "This fight ain't over, I will never wind up on the goodie-goody side!"

And Mega Man says "We disabled your weapon systems in case Dr. Wily's programming wasn't fully purged." Light says, "Robots are neither good nor evil. They do what their operators program them to do." Roll reiterates, "It's not fair that you all had to be destroyed just because Dr. Wily was a jerk. That's why we're rebuilding and reprogramming you--to give you a second chance!" How do we interpret that another way then that they are reprogrammed them specifically to remove the evil programming of Wily, because that evil programming wasn't their accountability? Yet if you take away that responsibility of choice before, what is changed now? What makes them more responsible now than they were then? Only the reprogramming.

I am not taking liberties, I am using the words that the comic uses. I'm not sure how to define a good robot if not one whose purpose is to benefit humanity and its fellow robots, or its reverse if it is not one who would act destructively towards others. Isn't that the very definition of what Quick Man is saying he wants to be? Exactly the thing he was built for and nothing more?

Quick Man was definitely involved with construction of the MM3 castle, he confirmed it in the "after the credits" scene. The only problem with it he expressed was that "on schedule" was too slow for his tastes, as he grinned and bragged of how well they were doing. And when it came to scouting the temple in Spiritus, he also boasted how he could have performed it in minutes, eager to convince Wily to let him help. So I am not reading into things, I am simply reading. If he had a huge problem that his talents were wasted with such tasks he never expressed it then. That would have been some clue-in as to his thoughts. This is how the character has presented himself. I am judging from what is written there, not from what isn't. But that is a minor point anyway.

Reprogramming is what we are both told and shown that in that boot up panel that Light did. Is brainwashing bad? It sounds contextually bad because that term has undisputed negative connotations. But then isn't getting rid of destructive habits that stands in the way of personal happiness and societal harmony good? Is it only okay for people to change when they feel like it, rather then when circumstances require them to? Is it only okay if the person wants to change or likes the change? Even if that person was a robot who we are told can't be held responsible for their choices and actions because they are merely acting out what is programmed? Either they are responsible for their choices or they aren't, either reprogramming a robot against its will for the greater good or okay isn't, but there are no answers to that here since Light first does and says one thing, then does and says another.

There is little underpinning the robot master issues which arose in this issue. That is my issue.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:18 pm

That's just Quickman, though. Unless we're just not concerning ourselves with the other robots.

And Mega Man says "We disabled your weapon systems in case Dr. Wily's programming wasn't fully purged." Light says, "Robots are neither good nor evil. They do what their operators program them to do." Roll reiterates, "It's not fair that you all had to be destroyed just because Dr. Wily was a jerk. That's why we're rebuilding and reprogramming you--to give you a second chance!" How do we interpret that another way then that they are reprogrammed them specifically to remove the evil programming of Wily, because that evil programming wasn't their accountability? Yet if you take away that responsibility of choice before, what is changed now? What makes them more responsible now than they were then? Only the reprogramming.


They are in the process of rebuilding and reprogramming them. Key part: the use of present tense. They haven't finished. They've disabled their weapons and are now giving them a choice.

And again with the "evil programming" ... the robots aren't presented as intrinsically evil. Some of them are very happy to be "bad guys" and weapons, but that doesn't make them evil.

Setting that aside, your interpretation of events paints Light in a way that we know isn't intended. We know what motivates Light. We know his future (the comics follow a set plot and go right into the X series). He's not going to suddenly shift into a manipulative, incompetent, hypocrite. He's a nieve person who genuinely thinks robots should be able to make their own decisions. Furthermore your interpretation makes this issue a wash. It's not really a debate about the ethics of reprogramming, but it's about Light's manipulation of robots. And that really doesn't seem to be intended.

So where does that leave us? Basically Ian shouldn't have tossed around the word "reprogramming" when writing the issue. I believe the intended way to interpret all that is in strict relation to their weapons. That's how I read that, that's what MM addresses when Quick first comes back online and there's no reason to think the reprogramming went any further than that.

I am not taking liberties, I am using the words that the comic uses. I'm not sure how to define a good robot if not one whose purpose is to benefit humanity and its fellow robots, or its reverse if it is not one who would act destructively towards others. Isn't that the very definition of what Quick Man is saying he wants to be? Exactly the thing he was built for and nothing more?

Well, you're taking liberties applying it to all the robots present. Well, I won't debate whether the Wily robots are "evil" further, it's a minor point.

Reprogramming is what we are both told and shown that in that boot up panel that Light did.

Maybe (that's not how I saw it; it seemed like a fancy way of showing Quick recognized MM as a Light robot), but you seem to be reading into it to the point where you've twisted the character of Light and the plot of the issue around so much that you've come out to an erroneous conclusion. There's a lot that can be debated in the issue, but the idea that Light reprogrammed the robots in order to argue with them and then agreed to turn them off is absurd.
Last edited by Gauntlet101010 on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Penguin God » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:05 pm

A major theme of the comic is that robots have to fulfill their programming no matter what: there are tons of Robot Masters whose personalities have nothing to do with destroying Mega Man, but they do anyway because they're Wilybots. Robots like Toad Man, Air Man, or Wood Man; when given their own choice (as Light wants to) they would choose jobs that aren't so destructive. In that way, they are not really responsible for their actions because they were never given that choice.
Then you have robots like Quick Man, whose entire identity and personality were wrapped around being weapons. Quick Man would want to be a weapon even without Wily forcing him, and so when offered a choice (as Light wants to, even though he knows robots don't have full free will he still wants to treat them as people as much as he can) he doesn't even want another chance.
In this issue, robots who were never able to choose their lot in life are given the chance to have that choice. When Quick Man makes that choice, he decides he wants to be shut down or to continue being a weapon, and thus he is shut down before his choice hurts others. The point of this issue was having robots able to make their own decisions in life, even if ultimately they can't change who they are inside.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:31 pm

I'm not even going to join this discussion (Gauntlet seems to be doing a good job on his own), but I will say this: even if you don't agree with decisions made by everyone in this issue, you can't deny that this issue spawned very interesting conversation, so it can't be all bad.

I mean, writer not always writes characters doing a right thing.

Also, one point in this conversation does make you wonder: connection between robot's 'soul' and his 'body'. I always assumed that in Megaman you simply can't put Cutman's brain into Gutsman body, but there is no good explanation why is that.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:41 pm

MetalSkulkBane wrote:Also, one point in this conversation does make you wonder: connection between robot's 'soul' and his 'body'. I always assumed that in Megaman you simply can't put Cutman's brain into Gutsman body, but there is no good explanation why is that.

Go read Gigamix. Don't wanna spoil it if you haven't read it. Also, there was an episode in RS MM where Snake and MM "trade bodies."
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Pi.exe » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:52 pm

Quickman just wants to get a day in the limelight too
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Axel T Rat » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:36 pm

+The Wily bots on the Light side. This will be interesting.
+Whoa! They shut themselves down! I mean...whoa. Dang. That's heavy... o.o
+Huh. So Mr. X is a separate person this time. Wait...That's really Sigma isn't it?! *Sees Sigma at the end* Nope. Never mind.
+Mega Man not shying away from the D-word regarding Wily's assumed fate.
+Getting a wide shot of where Skull Castle is and that one dialogue exchange between Stern and Y
+What the bloody?! Captain N Mega Man?! Daaang~ XD

So yeah, mostly showing my reactions here and very little negative to say although I wonder where the Mr. X is going to go once we return. Also, I had this idea. Maybe Captain N Mega Man could be an actual character, but could be called "Mega Boy" and along with "Mega Girl" (the closest thing to Roll from that show) basically monitor cross-dimensional breaches in the wake of Worlds Unite. How's that sound?
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:16 pm

Axel T Rat wrote: Also, I had this idea. Maybe Captain N Mega Man could be an actual character, but could be called "Mega Boy" and along with "Mega Girl" (the closest thing to Roll from that show) basically monitor cross-dimensional breaches in the wake of Worlds Unite. How's that sound?

I'm a pretty big fan of Cap N, so I'd love to see this happen.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Ian Flynn » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:22 am

MetalSkulkBane wrote:Also, one point in this conversation does make you wonder: connection between robot's 'soul' and his 'body'. I always assumed that in Megaman you simply can't put Cutman's brain into Gutsman body, but there is no good explanation why is that.

I'd assume it'd be like trying to install a RAM card on an incompatible motherboard. It may be that Cut Man's IC chip is designed specifically to interface with his body model, and simply wouldn't sync right in another Robot Master. That might help explain why the MM9 Robot Masters couldn't have their IC chips moved to updated bodies.

But that's just on-the-fly speculation.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Penguin God » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:20 am

Who says they couldn't? IC chips are all unique so you can't copy them, but nobody ever said you couldn't put one Robot Master's IC chip in another Robot Master's body. Heck, Doc Robot explicitly DOES take IC Chips and puts them in another body with the only instability coming from having eight personalities at once. The Mega Man 9 robots were never offered an upgrade: they went past their expiration date so they went in the trash. The whole point was the law was unfair.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:10 am

That's just Quickman, though. Unless we're just not concerning ourselves with the other robots.


Well, I was primarily discussing Quick, but as I've said I don't find the other robots to be particularly lucid in this issue either, something is wrong with them. And if we look at the panel where Quick's speech goes "If we resist, you've got to take us down. You already took our weapons, so it'd be a slaughter, If we get reprogrammed, we stop being us." Magnet, Gemini and Top are behind him looking serious at the viewer in a way that suggests when Quick says "us" he is speaking on behalf of all of them and implying they agree with him to some extent about not wanting to change themselves to be productive. Therefore those three and the other 4 angry birds could also be under similar faulty reprogramming, keeping Light's success rate at that firm 50%. Why the MM3s would say they are impractical or "too specialized", after Dr Light specifically told them "I had a hand in designing eight of you, before Albert stole the blueprints. You have an industrial function built into you" is probably the most obtuse thing. Did they think he meant some other eight? Have their brains been damaged? The other explanation is they agree with Quick and also feel they are bad guys at heart and can never belong. But I've been giving that knitting nerd Needle Man a lot of thought and maybe he feels so guilty about the way he badmouthed Wily in the past that now Wily's gone he just can't live with the guilt. But that would be putting words into his mouth, since he says nothing at all the whole issue. What a waste that he's giving Shadow that suspicious glance at first but we don't get a clue about what he's thinking.

They are in the process of rebuilding and reprogramming them. Key part: the use of present tense. They haven't finished. They've disabled their weapons and are now giving them a choice.


But Mega Man's was statement is past tense. "We disabled your weapon systems in case Dr. Wily's programming wasn't fully purged." The purge is the primary objective, and turning off weapons is for in case it didn't work, and both are already in place. And given how Quick acts, it didn't work. They were right to disable weapons. Rock then suggests another reprogramming because it's clear that first one didn't get the job done, just as they had feared (which was why he was armored in the first place, according to Rock). I think that is what Roll means with her present tense. The reprogramming should have continued as necessary until they are all happy productive robots. But Dr. Light meets a little resistance and gives up on them instead, and that is what I find out of character for Tom.

Setting that aside, your interpretation of events paints Light in a way that we know isn't intended. We know what motivates Light. We know his future (the comics follow a set plot and go right into the X series). He's not going to suddenly shift into a manipulative, incompetent, hypocrite. He's a nieve person who genuinely thinks robots should be able to make their own decisions.


Back in Time Keeps Slipping, Light and Rock are in a car and Light is explaining to Rock what will happen to Wily in prison. He compares robot programming to the laws human beings in society must follow. Rock assumes then that human criminals have bad or erroneous programming and asks if they can be reprogrammed. Dr. Light says that no, humans can't be reprogrammed. (Debatable since humans can be brainwashed and propagandized in their own ways, but this is about how Light sees it). Rock says that's a shame, but Light says it's great that humans have free will and it allows us to dream and innovate and conceptualize greater things for us to achieve. Rock asks if he has free will. Light says he does not, because it while they are capable of a wide range of human-like emotions and decision-making abilities, they are all ruled by their coding. This has been Light's stance from the get-go in this comic. He needs to create X to achieve that kind of robot that can choose right and wrong by itself. The robot is only good if they are programmed to be good. They can be "reprogrammed and misused", they are intelligent tools but still just tools who aren't responsible for their decisions because someone had to program their brain algorithms with some morality for them to be good. And that is why he says his robots were not responsible for what they did in MM1. And that is why these Wily robots get a second chance. Being programmed bad wasn't their fault, and that criminal programming can be corrected simply enough with reprogramming. Light is so committed to the mindset that 'bad programming = not responsible' that he even accepts that Wily was brainwashed under the mind control of Ra Moon (which also may contradict what he says about you can't reprogram people, but maybe extraterrestrial technology is a forgone exception) to excuse Wily's evil behavior--though he seems to agree that the indomitable will of the human spirit is what allowed Wily to return to normal afterward. And now Light changes his mind halfway through this issue and accepts their refusal to be productive civil robots as a decision they are capable of making on their own. Unless he flipped a switch and turned them into reploids, they are no more responsible for their internal thoughts now than they were before, at least by his own stated logic. Now personally, I think Dr. Light does not have human behavior completely figured out because robots change themselves just by learning and responding to their environment and even reploids can be stripped of free will as humans can through torture or straight-up lobotomies, but those are nowhere near as reliable as robot reprogramming and he might even meant "shouldn't be reprogrammed" more than "can't be reprogrammed", but those are the words he uses.

So he either decided now that he was wrong all along or he's being hypocritical of his own viewpoint that the personal responsibility of robot choices lies with the robot's programmer. That the robot's human boss is responsible for the robot seems to be how the law regards it as well, and that could be due in part to Light's influence as a trusted expert on the field. Those in charge trust in Light with such matters. And if Light changed his mind that these robots already have the free will to make moral decisions for themselves, then the X-factor has already been achieved and X is just an upgrade with worrying cranked to 11 (and maybe that's true, as this has always been an issue for interpreting what the difference between reploids and classic robots is).

And again with the "evil programming" ... the robots aren't presented as intrinsically evil. Some of them are very happy to be "bad guys" and weapons, but that doesn't make them evil.


When Quick says he's a "bad guy", Light directly responds "Not necessarily. Robots are neither good nor evil. They do what their operators program them to do." So Light seems fine with using bad and evil as synonyms. It is evil to want to do bad over good. And "taking down Dr. Light's golden boy" is a bad thing to do. I think he can be considered evil without meaning he's the ultimate evil in the universe. Just angry minion evil. But again, he insists that he's a bad guy built to destroy and a weapon and all this and he likes it that way. This padawan is under the influence of the dark side.

Maybe (that's not how I saw it; it seemed like a fancy way of showing Quick recognized MM as a Light robot)


The "SYSTEM BOOT" clued me in that it was a system boot screen. It shows his little sprite and everything, it seems like an internal diagnostic. And Wily's logo is there looking greyed out. There were no Wily robots in his field of vision so the L logo was representing Mega Man why was Wily's logo there? It also appears before his cognition is on and his vision starts processing, so what would be the meaning of this bizarre radar? And his sprite is there, like an internal system check. And we know Quick wasn't cognizant or self-aware at the time because otherwise he would have known his weapon system was disabled. And when his vision is fully online he has that broken up sprite of Rock on the side when he's scanning Mega Man, and the L is not even there, so... I think we can safely say you were mistaken.

the idea that Light reprogrammed the robots in order to argue with them and then agreed to turn them off is absurd.


I agree, so I wish Ian hadn't done that, but that is what Mega Man said. And honestly, having just as many Wily bots change their spots so readily is equally dubious in its own way if these robots aren't responsible for their own ethical decisions as Light maintained at all times before. I guess nobody, not even Light, knows where the line is drawn.


Also, one point in this conversation does make you wonder: connection between robot's 'soul' and his 'body'. I always assumed that in Megaman you simply can't put Cutman's brain into Gutsman body, but there is no good explanation why is that.


Yeah, if you design an IC chip that is to optimally interface with and operate a certain specific body type, then switch that body for another differently specialized one without converting the IC chip accordingly to the new infrastructure, makes sense you will risk getting some errors or being unable to function at all. At the very least, they'd probably be clumsy and disoriented for a good while. Ariga made the excuse that Rock, Roll, and Cut Man's bodies were designed very similar to each other so their minds could be downloaded into each other's chips with less risk. And it might even be psychologically traumatic to be in a different body, if the robot mind is capable of experiencing such emotion. But that might depend on the situation and the robot.

Heck, Doc Robot explicitly DOES take IC Chips and puts them in another body with the only instability coming from having eight personalities at once.


The Doc Robot body was designed to allow different types of IC chips for testing purposes so he's not the best example of what's normally possible.

The Mega Man 9 robots were never offered an upgrade: they went past their expiration date so they went in the trash. The whole point was the law was unfair.


The Mega Man 9 robots were totally fine with being scrapped though. Wily asked if they weren't upset about it, and they respond like it's the most natural thing in the world. It is what happens after a robot has lead a full and productive life. Wily asks if they aren't angry that humans build them and use them and then throw them away, and they don't even know how to respond because the concept of being angry about being born with a purpose and fulfilling that goal and going off to rest seems so completely alien to their viewpoint. They respect the rules the humans have set forth and if one of those rules says they can only operate for so long before they need to recycle themselves to make room for other robots, they are happy just to serve for the time they have. The only thing that Wily can say to get them to come with him is when he insists they can still be useful to humanity if he works on them. Only the idea that they have more to give can entice them, because being helpful and selfless and filled with purpose is their highest aim of all. Mega Man to Quick Man, "You can't mean that !" "You're letting yourselves go to waste!" What Quick Man proposes in shutting himself down is against the nature of honest robots to want to be useful and to serve. But so is being told you have a purpose and then denying it. Not behaving as proper robots at all by that estimation. But of course, it isn't their fault they are programmed to think like that. Except when it is and we need to respect it just because Light suddenly says so.

Then you have robots like Quick Man, whose entire identity and personality were wrapped around being weapons. Quick Man would want to be a weapon even without Wily forcing him, and so when offered a choice (as Light wants to, even though he knows robots don't have full free will he still wants to treat them as people as much as he can) he doesn't even want another chance.


There's no point in asking a robot what it wants if he can just reprogram the robot to want to do what is desired. The only point would be to run a test to ensure that the reprogramming was completely finished and achieved the desired result.

But I want to ask you all, is that how you saw Quick Man in the comic? Forget this issue. Look at every one before it.

When we meet Quick he is following orders to bait Mega Man and retreat. He definitely wanted to beat Mega Man then, and even the other Wily robots make allusions to how Quick will be disappointed if Mega Man falls before Quick can fight him. But Quick also knows that Wily's plan is geared towards converting Mega Man, not towards Quick being the actual victor. Still Quick is just so confident that he doesn't think he can lose. He wants to prove himself and he is characteristically impatient. He is so eager for his turn that he helps rush Mega Man along to the different robot lairs and even finishes Flash Man before Mega Man can, tosses his opponent an E-Can, and challenges him to a test of speed before they even fight. And when Mega Man keeps up with him, Quick is pleased! Then he spends the remainder of the battle running around trying to prove he's the fastest instead of actually trying to harm Mega Man. What I take from all that is yes, he is following Wily's orders because he has to, but even then he doesn't necessarily agree with them. He believes in himself, and is very proud of his skills and speed. In fact, right there he put his desire for the thrill of the race before his desire to destroy Mega Man so he is also the kind of guy who revels in competition and he enjoys a strong challenge. He'd rather be the quickest than act as a weapon, that's what I see in that fight. In the Amazon he gets a second life and there he demonstrates he's not against showing off his speed at other non-combative tasks too, like searching the temple ruins for Wily. And when Shadow betrays them, Quick saves Mega Man from Shadow's attack. He accepts Mega Man's repairs, though he states he doesn't understand why Mega would help him after all he had done to him. Mega Man extends to him forgiveness, compassion, and trust, but he avoids rubbing it in Quick's face or insist that Quick Man owes him a debt for it, he just calls them even. I thought Quick saw then and there that they may be rivals but they don't need to be enemies. A mutual respect for one another was blossoming.

When Mega Man and Quick Man are fighting Ra Moon's forces side by side there is this great panel where they are protecting each others' backs and Quick and Rock bump fists/arms intentionally so Rock can scan him and use Quick Boomerangs again and in that moment Quick Man is looking directly at Rock and smiling. Like he enjoys fighting on the same side. Like they make a good team. Like if things were different, they would both be great allies and happy to rely on each other. Rivals without hatred, who can push each other farther and bring out the best in each other. that is who I thought Quick was in the comic. Quick still wanted a rematch, yes. He still wants to test himself against Mega Man and yes he would enjoy the fighting, but with Doc Robot's failure and the entire plan being one that Quick hated as much if not more than any of them, the time seemed right for these two to finally be on common ground. It was what Doc Robot was asking for in many voices. Mega Man would carry out their wishes.

Then #49. Quick wakes up, tries to battle Rock straight off, acts confused, remembers little to nothing about how the Doc Robot incident ended as though he doesn't remember that Rock saved the IC chips and that their bodies were sealed away intact and that they had asked Rock to revive them. He insults Rock repeatedly, acts freaked out about the notion of reprogramming when none of the others react to the news with such fear or hostility, he gets into an angry argument, makes Rock cry and then sneers with a gleeful smugness as the tears stream down Rock's face, and makes the ultimate declaration through action that he would essentially rather die than fight on the same side as him. Where did any of that come from?

Those moments they shared, all the character development, it added up to nothing. Less than nothing, because it treats them like those moments never happened at all. It all meant absolutely nothing. Quick's only purpose is to battle Rock and nothing else, it is all that makes his personality. No love of racing. No delight in showing off that speed. No irritation at waiting. No thrill in physical competition. No respect for one's rival. None of those traits that I saw in him. Just pure destruction, that's all Quick wants and acts like it's all he ever wanted. To thwart and discredit Mega Man at every turn. Give him boomerangs or give him death. I have no problem saying I don't like this characterization of Quick, but I liked all those moments before this and I feel like this isn't even the same character here. It's a shocker downer ending to be a shocker downer ending, not because things were building up to this moment from the very beginning and when it happens you say "of course! It could only have happened this way. It was there all along."

That's what I felt with Break Man's battle in #46. It had been building and building and we saw what Break Man was feeling and what Mega Man was feeling and they released all that pent up anger, all the confusion, all that emotion, and through battle finally understood each other for the first time. Rock saw the hurt and the betrayal Blues had felt at being replaced. Blues saw that Rock had only the best intentions and never wanted to cause Blues pain, because he loved him the instant he learned about him. Respect. Development. Change. That felt complete, and leads into why Blues chooses to save his brother and let the Light family know it was him. Even if he's not ready to come back, and even if he never will be, they showed each other their true feelings and it can never be the same. Blues knows he was on the wrong side, and it was causing everyone more hurt. He just needs some time to himself. A new chapter has begun. And if they return to the status quo in or after Worlds Unite I will be even more irate than I am about these pessimistic ignorant suicidal robots.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby lalalei2001 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:24 am

In the Power Fighters Light does offer to fix Protoman, but he turns him down. Other than Proto being repaired in Mega Man and Bass, they haven't really interacted since.

EDIT: It's possible that removing Wily's programming could have altered Quick's personality to be OOC.
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