Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby akessel92 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:51 pm

Man between this one and SU 74. Man these disappointed a lot of people. Did you and Leah lose your mojo?
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby Bean » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:47 pm

I don't know who was complaining about Pharaoh Man's introduction being early because I've always liked those early appearances. Same with Bright and Plant Man, and that's Bright and Plant Man!

I think most are taking umbrage with how the Doc Robot fight was built up to be another colossal fight for Mega, but that had to be toned down for the Devil and Copy Robot's return. Again, I liked the ending to the fight since you built it up as being unstable, but there wasn't much in the way of development. In the grand scheme, it felt like nothing got enough development there as it flew right by. It was a better third issue than MM1 and MM2's arcs, so I'll say that much.

I thought it made more sense to leave stuff out like CWU-01P when you did for the Powered Up arc, even if that fight was just to have that fight, but you can't really do that for Mega Man 3 since there is no return to the game the way 1 was revisited. I really don't know what you can do there. It's either get everything in or leave stuff out. My least favorite issue in the comic to this point is #20, though, since that was going all over the place. When there's too much going on, nothing has focus.

You're at your best when writing with a central plot in mind as almost everything related to Proto/Break Man has been great, including #46, and he's not a favorite for me. You just write him well. Same with Quake Woman. It's just a bummer that the official game arcs seem to be stuck in four-issue chunks with no chance to go that extra mile due to limitations when it's clear that it sometimes needs a bit more.

I thought eight would do it even for a long one like Mega Man 3, and if the Gamma/Mega Man fight goes well, that will be seven of eight issues in the arc I enjoyed. It's just that it felt like this needed nine if Yellow Devil and Copy Robot were included. That pushes the Doc Robot and Wily Machine #3 stuff to the next part and then the final Wily fight and aftermath gets what would've been nine.

It's been my favorite arc of the book, but #47 was rushed. Outside of that and how Gemini Man went down to me, it's been the best official numbered game you've done. Hope you aren't too discouraged by the negative tone to this one in the end from it. I just wish Archie would loosen the grip on making everything four issues... or else because it's not like it couldn't be included in another graphic novel down the road if it has to go a bit more.
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby EvilEddie » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:55 pm

Yeah, I think the main issue people are having with Doc was there were almost a year of hints leading up to it since Issue 36 so it's kinda an anti-climax for that much build up.
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby Penguin God » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:00 am

akessel92 wrote:Man between this one and SU 74. Man these disappointed a lot of people. Did you and Leah lose your mojo?

As much as I tore into it, it's only one bad issue after all. It happens sometimes, and it doesn't mean that everything is suddenly terrible.
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby Tylinos » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:17 am

Penguin God wrote:
akessel92 wrote:Man between this one and SU 74. Man these disappointed a lot of people. Did you and Leah lose your mojo?

As much as I tore into it, it's only one bad issue after all. It happens sometimes, and it doesn't mean that everything is suddenly terrible.

This. The rest of the arc's been pretty enjoyable for me. If I was annoyed with the whole arc, then I'd be worried. This was just a misstep.

Also, Ian, thanks for explaining your reasoning for why you wrote the issue the way you did. Even if I didn't like the execution, I can understand why it made sense to go that route.
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby Astrobot7000 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:44 am

Ian Flynn wrote:

Why bother with Yellow Devil and Wily Machine 3?
The former was because of the structure I've had to adhere to: open on an action beat, end on a cliffhanger.


It's interesting you say that, as I have wondered about it. Is this a mandate (not necessarily from Capcom, but maybe from editorial), that these mid-arc issues need to end with a cliffhanger threat? In other words, instead of introducing a threat that is destined to die immediately, is it possible to just have an issue end with Mega Man looking determined and saying, "I'm coming for you Wily. You won't get away with hurting my dad."

I'm not saying you have to do that, of course. I also understand the logic of keeping people excited and wanting to pick up the next issue. I'm just curious about where you having to adhere to that structure came from.
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:48 am

Astrobot7000 wrote:
Ian Flynn wrote:

Why bother with Yellow Devil and Wily Machine 3?
The former was because of the structure I've had to adhere to: open on an action beat, end on a cliffhanger.


It's interesting you say that, as I have wondered about it. Is this a mandate (not necessarily from Capcom, but maybe from editorial), that these mid-arc issues need to end with a cliffhanger threat? In other words, instead of introducing a threat that is destined to die immediately, is it possible to just have an issue end with Mega Man looking determined and saying, "I'm coming for you Wily. You won't get away with hurting my dad."

I'm not saying you have to do that, of course. I also understand the logic of keeping people excited and wanting to pick up the next issue. I'm just curious about where you having to adhere to that structure came from.


I think that's just standard Comic Book stuff dude. You have to end the story on a Cliffhanger to get people to want to buy the next issue.
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby Astrobot7000 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:27 pm

I understand that, however Ian said that he "had to adhere [to the format]." I was just wondering where the order came from. If it's self imposed, that's fine too. I just enjoy seeing the inner workings behind the scenes.
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby Ian Flynn » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:33 pm

Yeah, it's both an editorial direction and basic sense when it comes to writing a monthly book. Every issue is someone's first, so you've got to engage them from the start. And you need them to pick up the next issue, so you hook them with the cliffhanger.

Paul and I didn't always agree on what constituted a strong enough cold open/cliffhanger, but the principle is sound.
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby Mavrickindigo » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:28 pm

I guess the build up and the quick fight for Doc Robot disappoints me, mostly because Doc Robot stages and bosses are the hardest part of the game. I spent a few hours on and off this evening playing through those parts (okay, maybe an hour, I did have to beat the last 3 robot masters, too) But Wily's castle is essentially nothing in this game. its laughably easy and the boss fights aren't that good on their own. To have Doc Robot go down so easily seemed like a cheap way to do it, considering I still have trouble with them today, despite Mega Man 3 generally being my go-to mega man run-through game.
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:41 pm

In fairness, a lot of what made a lot of the Doc Robot battles so hard was cramming a routine for bosses half their size into these hulking bosses. Throw in a bit of collision damage, and...

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby Mavrickindigo » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:43 pm

LBD_Nytetrayn wrote:In fairness, a lot of what made a lot of the Doc Robot battles so hard was cramming a routine for bosses half their size into these hulking bosses. Throw in a bit of collision damage, and...

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

the stages were no joke either. Especially Needleman: death pit flying over nothingness with no source of energy after having to fight Air Man? Yikes

Also, I hope we have more going on in the comic than fighting Gamma, or that Ian spruces up the fight, because, well

the Gamma fight in Mega Man 3 is really pathetic. He's the easiest final boss in the franchise, as far as I can tell.
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby lalalei2001 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:31 pm

Mavrickindigo wrote:
LBD_Nytetrayn wrote:In fairness, a lot of what made a lot of the Doc Robot battles so hard was cramming a routine for bosses half their size into these hulking bosses. Throw in a bit of collision damage, and...

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

the stages were no joke either. Especially Needleman: death pit flying over nothingness with no source of energy after having to fight Air Man? Yikes

Also, I hope we have more going on in the comic than fighting Gamma, or that Ian spruces up the fight, because, well

the Gamma fight in Mega Man 3 is really pathetic. He's the easiest final boss in the franchise, as far as I can tell.


There's always what happens immediately AFTER the Gamma fight...
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:31 am

I thought the issue was okay. Not as intense or emotional as 45 and 46, but it will probably read better as a buildup to 48 when collected in GN form.

Didn't have a problem with Yellow Devil going down fast, it demonstrates Mega Man's growth as a warrior since the first adventure and also illustrates the tiredness of Wily's tactics, utilizing the same tricks over and over and expecting a different result.

The Copy Robot portion was adequate. Tragically killed just as he was making a heel-face turn and died trying to save Rock all the while reinforcing Doc Robot as the larger villain. This all would have felt more interesting if Hitoshi Ariga's Mega Mix hadn't done the same Copy Rock concept with greater pathos over 20 years ago, but I think readers who hadn't experienced that story already might connect more strongly with it here. To me it felt like a rushed retread on that idea, where I would have preferred to see something more original happen with the characters.

For instance, I don't believe Rush has ever seen a Copy Mega Man before, so that confusion could have been played up farther. Rush has been such an invaluable partner to Mega Man in these last few arcs, not just as a vehicle and a companion but as a fighter who helped several times to turn the tide of the battle. Only Break Man seems to really acknowledge this, and he often takes Rush out first. How about if the Copy Robot had used a little strategy besides leaping out and announcing himself? He could have sprung some trap to separate the Rock and Rush, then cosied up to Rush to try and convince him that he was the genuine article and that the other Mega Man was the evil copy controlling the holographs. In the end it couldn't work, Rush is far too smart for that I think, but it might have been interesting to explore how strong Rush's bond is to Mega Man and how well he knows his master. Conversely, temporarily befriending Rush might have served as a segue for copy robot to reexamine his life through actual experiences of camaraderie with something outside of himself, yearning for something more to life than just following orders, aside from being talked out of his evil ways post-battle (which Mega Man already tries a lot). I know Copy Robot identity thefting the real Mega Man was done in Worlds Collide, but that was for Sonic's benefit and not Mega Man's own cast.

On to the Doc Robot battle, I enjoyed the clashing of weapons like Leaf Shield vs Needle Cannon, Metal vs Magnets and so on. I would have liked to see the battle do more with exploring Doc Robot's design. He has those two weapon cannons on his back, it would have been interesting to see how they are used, whether he would swap them out with his regular arms or launch crash bombs or bubbles from his back as shoulder cannons like Vile from Mega Man X would. Aesthetically, I also would have preferred that "Weapon Equip!" boxes be a different color or look different from Rock's to contrast more and reinforce visually that his is a monstrous perversion of the copy system. And were Quick Man and Heat Man's dialog boxes both red, or did Heat Man just not say anything during the entire stint as Doc Robot? At first I thought Atmoic Fire had burned down the lab, but then it made it seem like Crash Bombs had done that, so maybe Heat Man just sat in the corner of Doc Robot's brain and didn't do anything the whole time.

I think what I like best about the 8-in-1 Doc Robot concept is how it takes these 8 pure Wily bots and pushes them to the limits of their loyalty. There is an interesting ethical question pertaining to taking the MM2 robots, who were designed by Wily only to fight and serve him, and reprogramming them with new purposes--essentially new minds. Is it ethical to simply overwrite their initial programs, to forcibly redefine who they are, even if it is with good intentions? Do robots have a right to autonomy and respect to their own individuality? Blues' story seems to be inferring that they should, so for Light to brainwash them to be "good robots" could be seen as similarly authoritarian to Wily's reprogramming Light's robots to serve him. But now, because these robots have now been pushed away by Wily's own careless vehemence, they are ready to choose a different path--however, it is a path their current programming limitations can never allow them to engage in. It's a small but I think important detail that they don't want to serve him anymore, but do it because they literally have to, similar to how Elec Man was previously tempted to attack the Ruby Spears, but couldn't (although perhaps he simply knew he shouldn't ethically, but wanted to emotionally). Ultimately, because of the Doc Robot incident, reprogramming the MM2 masters can now be seen as truly liberating them from their slavery instead of the act of Light forcing his will for robots to serve greater humanity upon them regardless of their internal feelings about it. At least, I think that's where issue 49 is going with things. Maybe they'll even be rebuilt beforehand. I am expecting more robot masters to show up in the Gamma fight, since Wily did mention how there's no telling who or what Light would send as backup.

The Wily Machine fight felt to be about getting from Point A to Point B, but also seemed out to waste space at the same time. At the bottom of one page there's 3 panels, first with Mega Man firing Spark Shot (erroneous throughout the issue, should be Spark Shock); next panel we see it hit the Wily Machine's cannon, exploding it; then we see what looks like the same explosion again in the next panel. Perhaps that was supposed to be the one of the pin-legs exploding since the next page it looks like the right leg is missing and something is making a "WHUD!" sound as though perhaps one side of the machine has fallen to the ground (although the Machine still looks upright in the image). The sequence seems redundant and doesn't make a lot of sense. At any rate, it ends and Mega Man uses all the game appropriate weaknesses for the fight which is a nice touch. Spring head Wily was nostalgic though I would have liked to see more of an eye-roll reaction after the fact from Mega Man. Castle Map with the Skull mark was a nice touch also. Rock's little internal conflict over having to destroy Gamma's brain was nice, though the decision would have felt more urgent if Gamma had gotten even one shot off first before being destroyed. The sequence with the helmet landing and the eyes lighting up was great, very true to the game, made me nostalgic. I like the perspective on the last page with Gamma breaking the floor away, makes me excited for the last issue (where I hope Gamma's arm will be the proper color).

On the art in general for this arc, I appreciate that the color palette and deeper shadows set the tone that this is a more serious dramatic storyline, but it feels like it clashes with the work of the penciller, and the results have been pretty hit or miss. Sometimes the lights and colors reflecting off the characters make them hard for me to look at, particularly during the copy battle. Speaking of, if they're going to keep using the purple scarf for the bad Mega Man copies I think they might as well use the triangular panel on the helmet and make the look authentic. These are just my opinions.

Finally, looking forward to the Gamma battle and the aftermath. Has it been said whether Worlds Unite will directly follow 49 or if the characters will jump ahead in time again? If it's a direct line, then I'm guessing Wily will be pretty banged up by the end of this story (assuming that's what Xander saw in Dawn of X, Wily getting a surprise visit from Sigma... but that scene could just as easily follow from Mega Man 10 or many other points). I am not really excited about the crossover, but I am trying to keep an open mind. It it is something Archie has to do it every 2 years as the price that keeps the Mega Man comic continuing, then I am all for that jazz.
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Re: Mega Man #47 - Spoilers/Discussion

Postby Mavrickindigo » Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:19 am

I'm sure the crossover is right after issue 49, because Break Man, not Proto Man, is in it.
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