Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Fri May 01, 2015 10:04 am

Xander is right within the context of the series. Making that point is a great idea.

But that name is really corny and I just don't see Xander as a legitimate threat. Hopefully this'll change.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby Antiyonder » Fri May 01, 2015 10:18 am

Gauntlet101010 wrote:One of the very first comics I ever read was the Dark Knight Returns and Batman Year 2. My parents didn't really comb what I asked them to buy, and yet, somehow I survived.

I've been a DC guy mainly until the New 52 and I gotta say that not a lot of comics were aimed at kids. And, from an outside perspective, it may be surprising how "not for kids" some comics can be when they star characters that used to be aimed at kids (and I'm thinking mainstream superhero comics - specifically DC since I used to be a big DC guy). It can kind of come out of nowhere, so I understand the main thrust of the point. You won't find any surprisingly problematic stuff in Megaman.


It's really less about being prudish or being underage, but more about well being critical that in the case of Marvel and DC, they are sometimes too determined to get the attention of adults that they take the fun out of reading their comics.

And again there are works that I find appealing as they have better writing in addition to the content like Watchmen (preferably the GN), Arrow, The Flash, the X-Men films and the Marvel Cinematic Universe to name some.

Though even then it's possible to seek to make a story mature and fail through other means than crude content. Case in point...

I like that it tackles the morality of the issues of using robots and isn't afraid to show that Dr. Light's position may be wrong.


Like some viewers of The Legend of Korra, I definitely felt that the issue of oppression (which was a motivator to The Equalists) was an admirable thing to try to shoot for, but too many shortcuts made it more problematic and something that the writers shouldn't have tackled (but that's for the Avatar thread or PM on it's own merits).

But one problem in particular is that the narrative lacked any positive individuals speaking up for the oppressed Nonbenders. Episode 8 "When Extremes Meet" has Korra briefly considering that the "Strawmen might have a point", but then such revelation is forgotten as the Book finishes it's story.

In contrast, Gilbert Stern in the comic presents us with a good person who shares the viewpoint of the Emerald Spears of how advanced robotics could bite humanity in their rears, but at the same time not resorting to their methods to cope with the fear.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby SonicSoul » Fri May 01, 2015 10:22 am

Stern just feels humanity is getting too over-reliant on technology and robots. He's never expressed interest in flat-out getting rid of it out of fear and paranoia like Xander believes. He says to Light the Emerald Spears aren't off the mark about their views but advocates technology should progress with caution and (humans) shouldn't get too dependent on it.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby Antiyonder » Fri May 01, 2015 10:24 am

SonicSoul wrote:Stern just feels humanity was getting too over-reliant on technology and robots. He's never expressed interest in flat-out getting rid of it out of fear and paranoia like Xander believes.


Wasn't his debate with Light in #22 showing that he had some of that fear, but not to the degree Xander and his group has?
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby SonicSoul » Fri May 01, 2015 10:25 am

Dislike for technology =/= fear of technology.

Stern's an old-fashioned guy who's unsure how to handle the new stuff of the world and feels it shouldn't overtake the feats humanity has brought.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Fri May 01, 2015 10:32 am

Dr. Lalinde also brings up great points in that debate too (sadly never to be brought up again). Robots are made to do work too dangerous for valuable human lives, so giving robots lives of their own is a bit counter productive in saving something valuable from risk. I liek that there are character with legitimate disagreements with Light and not have them be villains.

Gotta say, and this is somewhat off track, but Xander is kinda right within the context of the series. X5 sees Sigma crash an asteroid into Earth. By the Zero series humanity is ruled by a robot - a robot directly descended from Megaman. The official Megaman timeline is kind of a downer when you think about it.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby SonicSoul » Fri May 01, 2015 12:12 pm

What kind of makes Xander and his agenda fall apart for me is that he wouldn't have been like this had he not chose to make a rash and stupid decision to take on a then-reprogrammed Elec Man despite direct orders not to engage the enemy up close. And what kind of makes it tragic in a sense is that he likely will never see it as something he brought upon himself because he's let his bad experience coupled with increased paranoia that it could happen again overtake his mind. He also shoots his cause in the foot by not valuing human causalities the Spears commit and just sees them as insignificant despite protecting humanity being one of the Spears's goals. Also, aren't robots still not considered equal citizens with true free will, so they can't be fully-hold accountable for their actions unless it correlates the Three Laws of Robotics?

Really, the more I think about this, the more I don't find Xander or the Spears very engaging as antagonists, even though the stance they have is/was a much-needed one for the comic.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby Mordum » Fri May 01, 2015 4:17 pm

Fred Phelps is really poorly written for being a Christian antagonist who doesn't seem to adhere much to Christian views.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby SonicSoul » Fri May 01, 2015 4:30 pm

Don't know who that is and honestly don't care.

Xander's just a character I can't take seriously despite the issue he brings is serious in context of the comic. Plain and simple.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby Uwaaii » Fri May 01, 2015 4:54 pm

I feel Xander was weak as a villian because he was just insanely paranoid and lacked thought; it won’t be supported as much and wouldn't go so far unless it turns into some type of popular crazy cult.
It may have been more threatening if it was more mild like “Oh we don’t mind robots. Just don’t give them too much free will/emotion” and give logical arguments (like actual report of accidents caused by robots); they would sound more persuasive and attract more supporters.
They could even use this:
Gauntlet101010 wrote:Dr. Lalinde also brings up great points in that debate too (sadly never to be brought up again). Robots are made to do work too dangerous for valuable human lives, so giving robots lives of their own is a bit counter productive in saving something valuable from risk.

And make it into a lingering theme throughout the comic.

It would have been cool to have a character(s) that's not another evil villain wrecking havoc, but this figure that poses as a threat without directly attacking them and they can't really do anything about.
Spoiler: show
Like not understanding why Dr. Lalinde didn't simply remove the trauma out of Tempo instead of all her emotion so she won’t panic in situations that can make a normal drilling robot counter-productive (when she was caved in with megaman) or may prevent her from saving people (when she fell into the ocean ).
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby Mordum » Fri May 01, 2015 5:58 pm

SonicSoul wrote:Don't know who that is and honestly don't care.

Xander's just a character I can't take seriously despite the issue he brings is serious in context of the comic. Plain and simple.


I was sarcastically pointing out that most hardcore extremists that Xander echoes aren't really consistent with their own philosophies ("Osama bin Laden would be a much better written character if he adhered closer and more sympathetically toward the intent of the Qur'an!") and Xander's particular idiosyncrasies, though in a cartoon, kid's comic context, aren't vastly divorced from realism by a long shot.

Also, read a book.

Also literally every comment on how to "improve" Xander is mind boggling.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby Gonzo » Fri May 01, 2015 7:23 pm

Uwaaii wrote:
Spoiler: show
Like not understanding why Dr. Lalinde didn't simply remove the trauma out of Tempo instead of all her emotion so she won’t panic in situations that can make a normal drilling robot counter-productive (when she was caved in with megaman) or may prevent her from saving people (when she fell into the ocean ).

Spoiler: show
Best guess is that it's so Tempo will exercise caution when in situations like that, so that it won't happen again. Though, specifically regarding her trauma, it's possible that Tempo simply hasn't spoken to Dr. Lalinde about it--or maybe robot brains are complex enough that Lalinde can't completely remove it.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby Sunwalker » Fri May 01, 2015 7:34 pm

Mordum wrote:
SonicSoul wrote:Don't know who that is and honestly don't care.

Xander's just a character I can't take seriously despite the issue he brings is serious in context of the comic. Plain and simple.


I was sarcastically pointing out that most hardcore extremists that Xander echoes aren't really consistent with their own philosophies ("Osama bin Laden would be a much better written character if he adhered closer and more sympathetically toward the intent of the Qur'an!") and Xander's particular idiosyncrasies, though in a cartoon, kid's comic context, aren't vastly divorced from realism by a long shot.

Also, read a book.

Also literally every comment on how to "improve" Xander is mind boggling.

You are missing the point. It is not if the character is realistic or not, but if he is interesting. A work of fiction has no need to be "realistic", and reality can be pretty boring sometimes.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby El Veinte » Fri May 01, 2015 8:47 pm

If Xander was more of a ruthless effective villain, we might just have an original character upstaging Wily situation. I think crackpot Xander is fine the way he is.

My take on Tempo is that she was given breathing room to re-explore her emotions and memories because erasing the bad memories and denying that the tragedy and the removing her personality happened would be to continue trying to live a lie. LaLinde debated against emotional attachment for robots, but it was disingenuous because she was already emotionally attached. Further, it doesn't really matter whether the robots have strong personalities or not, humans are notorious for projecting their emotions onto inanimate objects in intimate situations. Craftsmen get attached to their tools, people develop fondnesses for things that can never love them back, but then imagine how rewarding it would be if those things could actually reciprocate. That loving can be scarey and can end up hurting is very truthful, but deciding then to try never to love at all is a very cold solution that misses out on a lot of potentially very good things too. LaLinde acknowledged she did not wish to live that way and allowed Tempo to know and feel the truth, and in Redemption we saw that sharing that experience, though difficult, has actually brought them closer together. It is a message of hope for the human beings reading the comic who cannot just erase our painful memories... at least not yet.
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Re: Selling points to bring up when recommending Mega Man.

Postby Uwaaii » Sat May 02, 2015 5:13 am

Gonzo wrote:
Spoiler: show
Best guess is that it's so Tempo will exercise caution when in situations like that, so that it won't happen again. Though, specifically regarding her trauma, it's possible that Tempo simply hasn't spoken to Dr. Lalinde about it--or maybe robot brains are complex enough that Lalinde can't completely remove it.

El Veinte wrote:My take on Tempo is that she was given breathing room to re-explore her emotions and memories because erasing the bad memories and denying that the tragedy and the removing her personality happened would be to continue trying to live a lie. LaLinde debated against emotional attachment for robots, but it was disingenuous because she was already emotionally attached. Further, it doesn't really matter whether the robots have strong personalities or not, humans are notorious for projecting their emotions onto inanimate objects in intimate situations. Craftsmen get attached to their tools, people develop fondnesses for things that can never love them back, but then imagine how rewarding it would be if those things could actually reciprocate. That loving can be scarey and can end up hurting is very truthful, but deciding then to try never to love at all is a very cold solution that misses out on a lot of potentially very good things too. LaLinde acknowledged she did not wish to live that way and allowed Tempo to know and feel the truth, and in Redemption we saw that sharing that experience, though difficult, has actually brought them closer together. It is a message of hope for the human beings reading the comic who cannot just erase our painful memories... at least not yet.

I was just giving it as an example of a topic that Archie can pick up and cover in depth, but thanks for the replies.

Basically I was trying to suggest a character more persuasive and threatening that Megaman and the others cannot “defeat” so easily.

1. Wily treat his robots as tools, and many readers feel uncomfortable with this because he an evil villian, we are familiar with the main robot characters, and sympathize with their human-like problems. But that’s how the MM world sees the robots: as tools to do dangerous and difficult jobs. And yet we never see any other people who simply see the robots as labor forces and question their emotion/feeling issues. When we do, they are either not taken seriously or considered wrong: Stern is just concerned, and Xander is too extreme/lacks logic to gain support. Lalinde was pretty much doing that nicely until it was revealed she was doing it to hide her feelings toward Tempo and didn't really mean it.

2. In MM#13-15 Lalinde revealed her action on Tempo because Light was debating against her and Xanders forced her to say it. In MM#35 we were able to see Tempo and Lalinde’s interaction because Blues did not understand Tempo’s decision. This shows that the characters need someone with opposing side/different view to talk about topics they usually want to avoid.

Combining the two points together, I thought it would be nice to have a powerful character that simply seeks efficiency and productivity in robots, and doesn’t understand why the robots should be given human traits (basically Lalinde during the debate); they can bring persuasive arguments or lingering questions that can cause doubts/tension/problems for all the doctors and robots, opening up opportunities for stories and development. And they can't really throw them in jail or beat them up because they can't be categorized as "evil" and not directly attacking like Xander or Wily.

I guess you don’t need that type of uncomfortableness or reality in a kid’s comic, but I thought it would be interesting. Maybe I wrote too much. Darn it.
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