Are Mobians gods?

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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby ReifuTD » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:47 am

Penguin God wrote:Everybody in the old continuity had strange highly advanced technology, and the fingers were incredibly inconsistent. Honestly, the only real difference was that Overlanders were more prone to being drawn badly and having anime hair.


Yeah on one hand I think Overlanders as a concept were meant to be superior to Mobians, on the other hand I don't think Mobians were ever meant to be superior to humans and on may level they aren't but in the end especially with the new continuity they kind of are.
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Re: Are Mobains gods?

Postby RaceProUK » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:39 am

MetalSkulkBane wrote:Also, I think Tails is based on some Japanese spirit.

He is; he's a kitsune.
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby Toby » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:42 am

He's based on the concept of a kitsune, in the games he's just a fox with a genetic mutation.
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby RaceProUK » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:56 am

Toby wrote:a fox with a genetic mutation

Is what gave rise to the mythology in the first place. Plus 'kitsune' is the literal Japanese translation of 'fox'.
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby SonicSoul » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:11 pm

Unless he sprouts more tails, I don't think he's technically one.

Plus kitsune in mythology were known to be mischievous tricksters who could shapeshift into a human or different animals. Neither attributes match Tails's personality nor abilities at all. If he's supposed be an actual kitsune (which he isn't), then there's really nothing to connect him back to the mythical creature besides the "oh look he has more than one tail!"
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby RaceProUK » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:23 pm

Kitsune can have anywhere from one to nine tails, and IIRC, it's only the nine-tailed forms that can adopt human form.

Edit: OK, I have a couple of things mixed up, so I'll just quote the relevant bits to make it easy:
Physically, kitsune are noted for having as many as nine tails. Generally, a greater number of tails indicates an older and more powerful fox; in fact, some folktales say that a fox will only grow additional tails after it has lived 100 years. One, five, seven, and nine tails are the most common numbers in folk stories. When a kitsune gains its ninth tail, its fur becomes white or gold.

A kitsune may take on human form, an ability learned when it reaches a certain age—usually 100 years, although some tales say 50.


And of course, when you put mythology aside, kitsune simply means fox, in much the same way harinezumi means hedgehog.
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby ToaArcan » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Village wrote:Not trying make people angry the statement: Some might argue that all gods are, in fact, of human construction. Also he is related to a giant space monster, so "old ones" could also be used as a reference


That's true of the real world, but in the Sonic universe, there are legitimate gods like Chaos, Solaris, and the Gaias, or at least, beings powerful enough to be considered gods.

And because I know somebody will bring it up: Yes, there is the whole "Mutant Chao" thing with Chaos, but that's never been directly stated in official material, and more recently, he was said to be a god in Waves of Change and SEGA would've had to approve that.

Village wrote:basically the equivalent of a sonic final boss


Black Death wasn't that powerful. When Black Doom, who was apparently stronger what with being the top dog and all, was a final boss, he used the Chaos Emeralds to become Devil Doom. When Shadow fights the normal form of Black Doom at the end of the regular story paths, he curbstomps him without too much trouble, unless the person playing happens to like body-checking incredibly telegraphed attacks with his/her face. As for Shadow easily burning him, it's a Universe arc, they didn't have room for a proper fight.

Village wrote:Or knuckles to samson.


Samson was just a dude who was really strong because hair or something. Atlas would probably be a better example.

Mobotropolis wrote: Adding insult was the BEM deducing that mobians were better off being roboticized. These weren't just space-thugs but advanced alien super-scientists. They probably knew what they were talking about.


I wouldn't take the Bem as any sort of authority. The whole "Deroboticized everyone" thing gives them a lot of good press, but it's also made everyone forget that they were kinda self-righteous jerkoffs who travelled around deciding what was best for other races and then forcing changes on them, without taking certain details into account. Remember that Ceneca-9009 determined that a race of biomechanical aliens would be better off without their metal bodies, so she deroboticized them, and they instantly died because they couldn't survive in their planet's harsh atmosphere without machine parts. That was the whole reason that she was imprisoned before they let her out to deal with Mobius, which got her put back in prison again when she defied their orders.

And that's without going into stuff like their treatment of the Prowers, whom they kept shut up on Argentium for years for no reason, robbing them of any hope of seeing their son grow, not even knowing if he survived until Sonic showed up, even when the Bem went back to Mobius, they didn't return Amadeus and Rosemary for... basically no reason. And when they did finally come back, they'd magically gone from staunch supporters of the Acorns to singing the praises of the same awful people who did all this stuff, and yet nobody is even slightly suspicious.

Seriously, screw the Bem.


Anyway, if Mobians are on the level of gods, what does that make Emerl/Gemerl, who can copy all of that stuff, do it just as well, and make it stronger through his ultimate mode? He even absorbed the abilities of Chaos him/her/itself. Notably, his power to understand this stuff comes from a third eye in the middle of his forehead, so is there anything symbolic there, or unintentionally symbolic, or is just spitballing?
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby RaceProUK » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:50 pm

ToaArcan wrote:Notably, his power to understand this stuff comes from a third eye in the middle of his forehead, so is there anything symbolic there, or unintentionally symbolic, or is just spitballing?

There does seem to be some mythos behind the concept of a third eye: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby ToaArcan » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:00 pm

RaceProUK wrote:There does seem to be some mythos behind the concept of a third eye: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye


THat's why I brought it up. It even opens when he's going into Ultimate mode.

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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby The KKM » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:06 pm

RaceProUK wrote:Kitsune can have anywhere from one to nine tails, and IIRC, it's only the nine-tailed forms that can adopt human form.

Edit: OK, I have a couple of things mixed up, so I'll just quote the relevant bits to make it easy:
Physically, kitsune are noted for having as many as nine tails. Generally, a greater number of tails indicates an older and more powerful fox; in fact, some folktales say that a fox will only grow additional tails after it has lived 100 years. One, five, seven, and nine tails are the most common numbers in folk stories. When a kitsune gains its ninth tail, its fur becomes white or gold.

A kitsune may take on human form, an ability learned when it reaches a certain age—usually 100 years, although some tales say 50.


And of course, when you put mythology aside, kitsune simply means fox, in much the same way harinezumi means hedgehog.


Still conflating things. Cats were royal and divine for Egyptians, doesn't mean Blaze is an Egyptian cat god. Tails is a reference to a kitsune, in that the kitsune is a simple image in Japanese culture, a fox with multiple tails; he has no other traits of the mythological entity, much in the same way Marine doesn't have massively engorged testicles to fly with.
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby RaceProUK » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:20 pm

The KKM wrote:Still conflating things. Cats were royal and divine for Egyptians, doesn't mean Blaze is an Egyptian cat god. Tails is a reference to a kitsune, in that the kitsune is a simple image in Japanese culture, a fox with multiple tails; he has no other traits of the mythological entity, much in the same way Marine doesn't have massively engorged testicles to fly with.

OK, firstly, I am not claiming Tails is a god, only that he is a kitsune. Secondly, kitsune in Japanese culture are spirits, not gods. Thirdly, most of the traits of a kitsune are not supernatural, and many are optional; even having multiple tails is optional. Fourthly, most of those magical abilities arrive as the fox gets older; Tails is 8 (or 12 at the most) and is therefore too young for these extra abilities. And fifthly, for the third time today, kitsune is the Japanese word for fox.

If you asked a Japanese person to tell you what this is
Image
they would say 'kitsune'. Because that's their word for 'fox'.
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby The KKM » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:03 pm

You do understand real-life foxes aren't spirits who grow tails, etc. etc., right? Kitsune is the word for fox, but if you want to be like that, chat is the word for cat and cão is the word for dog. What's that got to do with anything? For you to even bother mentioning kitsune in English, you're referring to the folklore of the spirit fox, which Tails DOES nod to with the multiple tails, but NOTHING ELSE. There is NOTHING to indicate they meant for Tails to be a magical spirit fox in any way other than using a similar visual image.

EDIT: And if you want to be this pedantic, you DO know the common translation for "kami" is "god", right? Not in the abrahamic sense, but in the sense of "powerful mythical entity who is worshipped".

EDIT EDIT: @#$%, I didn't even say you were saying Tails was a God, I was mentioning Blaze isn't a god as a term of comparison between conflating visual references to mythology to having the characters actually be the mythology. Devil Chao are not actual satanic entities. Angel Chao do not serve Yehovah high in the heavens. Tails is not a spirit fox who'll live 900 years.
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby RaceProUK » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:19 pm

The KKM wrote:For you to even bother mentioning kitsune in English, you're referring to the folklore of the spirit fox, which Tails DOES nod to with the multiple tails, but NOTHING ELSE. There is NOTHING to indicate they meant for Tails to be a magical spirit fox in any way other than using a similar visual image.
And pretty much all of those magical abilities are optional, and even if they weren't, Tails is too young to have developed any of them. And bear in mind we have no idea how long a typical Mobian is meant to live; that's never been defined.

The KKM wrote:And if you want to be this pedantic, you DO know the common translation for "kami" is "god", right?

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami#Etymology:
Although "deity" is the common interpretation of kami, some Shinto scholars argue that such a translation can cause a misunderstanding of the term.
I believe that applies here. The Western concept of 'deity' is often a being with omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience; Eastern religions however do not generally share this concept, instead favouring a concept that is more correctly described in English as 'spirit'.

Edit: Done some research here, and found a few things that could be classed as 'magical' abilities, namely his raw strength, and his 'twin tails [that] are shown to be very powerful limbs in their own right, being both strong and fast enough to slice through metal'. Not to mention those handful of occasions when he's been able to tap into the Chaos energies, a skill shared only with Sonic, Shadow, Silver, and Knuckles.
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby The KKM » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:26 pm

Yeah well tough luck to the Western concept, not only was it the one I wasn't using (since I was mentioning it in the concept of Egypt), I wasn't even mentioning it in the context of the kitsune. You're diverting to irrelevant nonsense.

Tails may as well be a magic kitsune spirit fox Naruto, in the same way that for all we know Sonic has cancer and Shadow likes to play marbles in his free time- that's the realm of headcanons. If you're going in there, then what's to discuss? You're conflating your own headcanon with what's actually happening in the games, which is what Toby mentioned. He has two tails, like a kitsune has multiple tails. Nothing else in the games indicates at all he's meant to be a spirit fox. Nothing else indicates he's meant to be anything but a fox. And yes, in Japanese the word is the same, but that doesn't mean the actual entities are the same, unless you know any real life 900-year-old foxes around? He's not a kitsune (as in the spirit fox), he's a kitsune (as in the Japanese word for fox, meaning he's also a raposa, a zorro, and however you'd say fox in French).
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Re: Are Mobians gods?

Postby Mobotropolis » Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:06 pm

Actually in the old continuity Overlanders where the creatures of living myth and was different then humans or at least at first

It was the other way around. Humans were thought to have been completely wiped out by the Gene Bomb until a colony of them was found during the Sonic Adventure adaption. Overlanders are mobian humans. They evolved and lived alongside mobians, but left the planet for about a decade following the end of the Great War.

None the less you missed the point.

Which is that the average mobian isn't very special at all so why would people worship them?

Remember that Ceneca-9009 determined that a race of biomechanical aliens would be better off without their metal bodies

The experiment was held by the Council.

It's pretty clear that 9009's judgement is clouded by her morality.
they didn't return Amadeus and Rosemary for... basically no reason.

For their own safety. Both from Eggman and the Xorda who had declared war on Mobius.

Again, my argument is that the average mobian is actually pretty underwhelming. Individuals like Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, and the such represent maybe the Top 1% of all mobians. The vast majority of mobians we've seen do not have anywhere near their level of ability. I'd even stretch and say that they have no powers at all.

So it's like saying that sentients in the Marvel-verse worship humans because of the X-Men. o-o
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