The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby GentlemanX » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:07 pm

Mordum wrote:But if you support this crap, and think it's the same as REAL reviewing and dissection, you're an anti-intellectual who basically supports mean spiritedness and bullying. There's not a real way to get around that, though I'd be willing to see someone try. There is just no conceiveable reason to support an entire culture of trivial malice and anger for its own sake.

Says the person flinging as much vitriol as possible because other people disagree with you.

Look, the internet video review culture is not to mock, it's to entertain. It's focus is to get the audience watching to laugh. Sometimes they go for something else, History of Power Rangers' purpose is to inform for example, but overall stuff like Atop the Fourth Wall, Nostalgia Critic, The Completionist etc. is meant to be a comedic critique of a work. Can it be a more serious dig at a person or art? Yes, Linkara's review of Holy Terror or Nostalgia Critic's recent review of Christmas with the Kranks both tear apart their subject matter and declare the work as reprehensible toward the overall public.

Are they right in those views? That's up to the individual. I for example enjoy Christmas with the Kranks and watched it literally the night before I watched the review with my family like I do every Christmas season. Does that mean their opinion is wrong? No, each reviewer is entitled to their own opinion just as much as any other consumer is. The reason this culture exists is because there are people that are entertained by this type of program and want to see more of it.

Does that mean your own views of that culture are wrong? No, they're fine as your own opinion, but that's not a concrete fact either. You go on to length about how much you dislike Hagan because she mocks the extreme horror genre you love so much and her treatment of it is repulsive to you; but there are plenty of people who feel similarly to that genre itself. The mere existence of that genre disgusts some people and they see it as a detriment to human society. Are they wrong? No, there's nothing inherently wrong with that opinion, but by the same token there's nothing wrong with your love of how personal those works are either. Neither view is incorrect due to the mere existence of that thought.

This is what I don't like with your posts in this thread; the hostility and contempt your showing because other people disagree with you. I understand that you're offended due to your own opinions of this genre of media, but if you're not going to promote human decency; if you're going to shame other human beings for expressing their views, you're not going to get people to acknowledge or reasonably discuss your points.

Honestly, I think it'd be better to give that aspect of the topic a rest. No one here is going to change Mordum's views since he's clearly analyzed the topic enough to have an established reason for his thoughts and opinion and those reasons aren't going to sway people since they aren't a verifiable fact.

...oh right, the actual topic. I've watched a lot of The Completionist, though I haven't seen the actual review. I like Sonic Heroes okay, though it drags a lot to complete due to the four story modes essentially repeating themselves. When people talk against the multiple gameplay styles of the Adventure games in favor of streamlining the character styles together, Heroes is the first thing to come to mind to suggest against that. It has almost no replay-ability for me even before I've actually finished it. I'm currently going through the Sonic games with some of my friends, none of whom are admittedly really Sonic fans, and they absolutely hated Heroes; it's probably the most negatively received one so far. The friend I've known the longest grew up with Heroes same as me, and for him it did not hold up at all from back then. I don't dislike it as much as them, and I'm grateful for the game giving us Cream, Omega, and the Chaotix, but that's pretty much it.
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby Mr.Unsmiley » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:14 pm

GentlemanX wrote:you're not going to get people to acknowledge or reasonably discuss your points.


the people who engage with Mordum are always missing his points to begin with, they should probably work on that before they move up to reasonably discussing them
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:03 am

Mordum wrote:
The Swordsman wrote:People aren't illiterate for liking HOP.


It sure doesn't hurt.


I would take issue with this, as I do enjoy it myself, but... it's not even worth considering in the grand scheme of things, really.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby The Swordsman » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:43 pm

Mordum wrote:
The Swordsman wrote:People aren't illiterate for liking HOP.


It sure doesn't hurt.

You don't like the reviews because you find them mean spirited and a form a bullying fine, but this shows that you are a hypocrite. :x
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby ToaArcan » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:44 pm

Mr.Unsmiley wrote:
GentlemanX wrote:you're not going to get people to acknowledge or reasonably discuss your points.


the people who engage with Mordum are always missing his points to begin with, they should probably work on that before they move up to reasonably discussing them


As far as I can tell, the points here are:

1) Reviewers are bad because they say negative things about other people's work and make money off it.
2) If you like Linkara, you are an idiot.

If Mordum dislikes online reviewers, that's his perogative. But insulting people who do like their content and calling them illiterate... Yeah, I don't think that flies.
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby Mordum » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:08 am

ToaArcan wrote:
1) Reviewers are bad because they say negative things about other people's work and make money off it.


I get that it's mean when I call people illiterate, but.

Like, for real, if there's a genuine incapability to understand the difference between negatively reviewing a piece and creating a financial ecosystem through which one will develop a brand around plucking blatantly subpar things, dragging them out and being "analyzed" snarkily, and from there on building a cult of personality as the go-to authority on this media niche even though, at best, said authority was built entirely out of taking the refusal to grade on a curve to its most logical, manipulative extreme ALL in an attempt to foster profit off of the hard work and creativity of others, then I'll throw my hands up and leave. It's not just "making money of it." Real critics are paid for their negative opinions. But just saying 'making money off of it" is just more than a little bit of a downplaying of fostering an ENTIRE SMALL INDUSTRY to profit over the creativity and work of others, exclusively, while calling yourself someone who assesses things "critically."

I feel like I've said that a million times. There's nothing wrong with a negative review. There IS something genuinely, sincerely questionable about the above...and all of the people who don't think so seem to think comedy sketches are exactly the same as media reviews, funny that.
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby ToaArcan » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:31 am

Funny thing about that is that the "illiterate" thing was said in relation to HOP, which half the time consists of Lewis gushing over what's generally a sub-par series.

Also, most of these people start out as bottom-tier Youtubers who make jack all off their videos and only get to the point where they can make money through popularity. CA also does a genuinely awful job of paying its contributors, and considering how little money ads provide, combined with the rise of the glorious adblocker, it's generally not profitable enough to make it a full-time job. Linkara does it somehow, and Doug does it by constantly pushing out videos,all of which are monetized.

Not to mention that you're stereotyping all reviewers as AVGN-inspired caustic critics, when a lot of them aren't like that. Plenty of reviewers, both on Youtube and CA, are a lot more balanced. Johnny was mentioned earlier, and he's given plenty of positive reviews. Film Brain's Projector series is analytical and well-thought out, as well as being spoiler-free. The Walkers also do spoiler-free discussions of newly released movies (With a separate video for spoilers), be they good or bad. These could actually convince someone watching to invest in seeing the film or buying the game themselves. THere's also a distinct lack of sketches.

Also, it still doesn't mean it's okay to insult other people for what they like. Not intentionally, anyway.
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:16 am

ToaArcan wrote:Funny thing about that is that the "illiterate" thing was said in relation to HOP, which half the time consists of Lewis gushing over what's generally a sub-par series.


By that very note, half the time consists of him criticizing it as well.

Sub-par or not, it's a series that's lasted more than two decades and has a lot of fans -- many of which haven't seen everything. He happens to be one of them, and offers his opinion -- as a fan of the series -- on what it gets right and wrong.

There's nothing wrong with that at all.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:35 am

LBD_Nytetrayn wrote:
ToaArcan wrote:Funny thing about that is that the "illiterate" thing was said in relation to HOP, which half the time consists of Lewis gushing over what's generally a sub-par series.


By that very note, half the time consists of him criticizing it as well.

Sub-par or not, it's a series that's lasted more than two decades and has a lot of fans -- many of which haven't seen everything. He happens to be one of them, and offers his opinion -- as a fan of the series -- on what it gets right and wrong.

There's nothing wrong with that at all.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"


Yeah but y'know he once said he saw a theme of Magic vs Technology and that automatically makes him a complete a total idiot.
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby Mr.Unsmiley » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:58 am

ToaArcan wrote:Also, it still doesn't mean it's okay to insult other people for what they like. Not intentionally, anyway.


they'll live

SonicBlueRanger wrote:Yeah but y'know he once said he saw a theme of Magic vs Technology and that automatically makes him a complete a total idiot.


this doesn't necessarily sound like the type of thing Mordum would get on him about
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby The Swordsman » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:24 pm

Mr.Unsmiley wrote:
ToaArcan wrote:Also, it still doesn't mean it's okay to insult other people for what they like. Not intentionally, anyway.


they'll live

Still doesn't make it right.
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:38 pm

Mr.Unsmiley wrote:
SonicBlueRanger wrote:Yeah but y'know he once said he saw a theme of Magic vs Technology and that automatically makes him a complete a total idiot.


this doesn't necessarily sound like the type of thing Mordum would get on him about


Maybe not but it's the kind of thing I see a lot.
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby Mordum » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:04 pm

SonicBlueRanger wrote: Magic vs Technology and that automatically makes him a complete a total idiot.


You know how this would go, right?

Where I articulate why you're oversimplifying my point to a depth you can't actually defend, and you just kind of ignore it but end up snarkily referring to how dumb it is later, even though you've got this weird anti-intellectual pride thing going?

Say anything you want about me (and really, do it. Like I give a fat @#$%), but when I challenge something, I commit.

Magic vs Technology is a very handy shorthand for the fact that Linkara is a grown man who went to college who consistently does not understand the words that comes out of his mouth, and "Magic vs Technology" is a prolific criticism because it's a shorthand that represents the wider schtick.

I mean, you really want me to break it down? Because I will. And you've seen me post enough. I know I can, know I could, know I would, and know I will. So do you. And you know you wouldn't have a response to it. Because you can't actually defend whatever you've put stock in, but you'll sure as @#$% fling crap at someone as if they can't actually justify themselves. When at the end, the only one who actually can't is always you.

So, yes, please, keep up your act where you're just lighthearted all fun guy, even though you have this exact same shaming, vindictive streak these reviewers you love so much have. Start your channel. You'd be great at it. Artists deserve it, don't they?

GentlemanX wrote:This is what I don't like with your posts in this thread; the hostility and contempt your showing because other people disagree with you. I understand that you're offended due to your own opinions of this genre of media, but if you're not going to promote human decency; if you're going to shame other human beings for expressing their views, you're not going to get people to acknowledge or reasonably discuss your points.


And you know, if it was most things, I'd agree with you. Not sure if I'd stop? But I'd agree with you.

But no. If you're promoting and/or otherwise agreeing with or endorsing a fan culture that's largely born out of "REVIEW THIS NEXT IT SUCKS XDDDD", you can take a little hammering. It's what's been fostered. Suck it up.

You know what I don't like about YOUR posts in this thread, though?

Look, the internet video review culture is not to mock, it's to entertain.


Does that mean your own views of that culture are wrong? No, they're fine as your own opinion, but that's not a concrete fact either.


Pick one, chuckles.

This really bothers me. You open INSISTING to me that my view is wrong. You are blatantly correcting me in the first quote. You wouldn't sit me down and explain things to me, that this thing isn't as horrible as I think it is, if you didn't think I was wrong. So call me wrong. Nut up for five seconds and just tell me you think I'm wrong. Don't pull this wishy washy crap where you're trying to "respect my opinion" by telling me I'm entitled to my opinion you explained JUST A SECOND AGO is wrong. This is the kind of contradictory, fake-feel good bullcrap that's stealthily still trying to assert that I'm wrong.

Opinions aren't wrong? In my opinion, you're the same as everyone else and you're trying to hide a feel-good, mediator persona behind anti-intellectual (throwing it around, yes, but it's valid) garbage. Call me bad for being vitriolic, fine? But you're the exact opposite: you're someone who pretends to be even handed and fair but deep down don't actually have the balls to just slam me down as wrong, so you want to look like the better man even though you're blatantly contradicting yourself. Calling me wrong, calling me right. Looking like the better man, but being just as dismissive as I am. At least I'm honest about what I feel and what I'm doing.

So congrats, you're worse, more dismissive, than I am. Because at least I'm being honest.

The Swordsman wrote:You don't like the reviews because you find them mean spirited and a form a bullying fine, but this shows that you are a hypocrite.


Bullying is about establishing a position of power and dominance over others. Insulting you isn't bullying you, because I'm not trying to establish, nor would I even benefit from gaining, a position of power over you.

I also don't really think my frustration comes from mean spiritedness when the entire point is I really dislike that there's an entire thread of people supporting an infantilized culture dedicated to profiting off the creativity of others.

So I'm not a hypocrite. For future reference, http://dictionary.reference.com/.

LBD_Nytetrayn wrote:Sub-par or not, it's a series that's lasted more than two decades and has a lot of fans -- many of which haven't seen everything. He happens to be one of them, and offers his opinion -- as a fan of the series -- on what it gets right and wrong.

There's nothing wrong with that at all.


Yeah, you're full of crap. I even remember when Linkara was setting up his Patreon (because when you have fandom friends, news like this just becomes impossible to avoid), one of the rewards was setting a deadline for his lasted HOPR. Operation Overdrive. Which comment after comment was excited to give him money just so can record himself insulting it.

Greg Weisman's Rain of the Ghosts Kickstarter barely succeeded. Ian Flynn's Raiders of the Abyss actively struggled to get the little money it did. It's hard enough with an equal playing field and every artist having a fair shot. These people succeeding or failing wouldn't upset me alone. but when you consider how much these people struggle and then consider that someone like Linkara can earn an absurd amount of money for what amounted to, at the time, was an incredibly predictable opinion that anyone within earshot had heard ad naseum since, what, 2007?

And you know why, right? Because he was a name first. And he made his name, he became an "authority", by nitpicking blatantly subpar work over and over again, convincing a bunch of people he was a real critic or someone with actual analytical talent, and then uses his brand to basically get money that actual artists could be getting to just do overly simplistic, stupid "analyses" that somehow, SOMEHOW, manages to take a show that is intended for six year old children and use it to reveal how little he actually understands about storycraft, analysis, and even the basic ability to reasonably organize his own opinion.

And you know what? Even then? Even then? It would not bother me so much if he clearly wasn't having money shoved down his throat entirely by vindictive, angry nerds who hold needless grudges over people writing adventure stories for preschoolers. If there wasn't comment after comment eager to see Overdrive burned at the stake as if it never was before, all because Linkara is some kind of authority because he noticed things everyone thought were bad were bad. As if there wasn't some cult of personality equating anger with authority (which is weird, because nobody seems to think I'm expert at anything) sustaining him, as if his "criticism" wasn't just such shallow, surface level thinking that he even manages to sound like an idiot when assessing shows he's too old to mistake. All because of nerd grudges, all because of sustaining the angry, infantilized manchild culture of being unable to move past your childhood, and having this ridiculous desire to spew hatred at things that break people's little hugboxes.

(Jackie Marchand, major writer of Power Rangers from MMPR season 2 to RPM, would comment that Operation Overdrive "got away from them a little bit", recall misfortunes of being severely underbudget for the pitch they sold to Disney, and then move on with her life as angry nerds throw money at a lispy hemorrhoid to explain how much a year of her life deserves paying someone else to publically shame it with loud malice.)

ToaArcan wrote:Not to mention that you're stereotyping all reviewers as AVGN-inspired caustic critics, when a lot of them aren't like that. Plenty of reviewers, both on Youtube and CA, are a lot more balanced. Johnny was mentioned earlier, and he's given plenty of positive reviews. Film Brain's Projector series is analytical and well-thought out, as well as being spoiler-free. The Walkers also do spoiler-free discussions of newly released movies (With a separate video for spoilers), be they good or bad. These could actually convince someone watching to invest in seeing the film or buying the game themselves. THere's also a distinct lack of sketches.


The problem is that it's STILL born out of a culture where it's less about discourse, exchange of ideas, etc. and ENTIRELY about these people, not the conversation they're having. Critics are meant to comment on culture as it grows at the time, whereas these people are all about actively regressive backwards, repeatedly, and building their own brands around their own (often completely interchangeable) opinions...that, let's face it, is STILL BASED AROUND STUFF WE CALL BAD. The other thread with the 06 review might be an overall positive (if full of contradictions, logical fallacies, insane holes, and a voice that can murder someone in the dead of the night) review, but the reason it's there? The lions are hungry. And it's STILL a culture that less about conversation and more about creating brands of people who can repeat and reenforce how people already feel about things. It's not about anything, it's not about creativity, it's not about doing something or contributing, it's just about people creating brands specifically for the purpose of stewing around in their own feces, over and over, ad naseum, and then they get mad when some people don't think that this constantly regressive manchild culture is all that great.

Also, it still doesn't mean it's okay to insult other people for what they like. Not intentionally, anyway.


But insulting people for what they do, for money, is fine.
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby DudestofGuys » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:55 pm

I don't appreciate that he's insulted you guys, but you're kind of proving his point when you simplify an argument from (in brief) "These reviews aren't even reviews, and they're not even taking the work and making something new with it or evaluating it to make good jokes, it's just people screaming 'WHYYY?! WHY?! YOU'RE SO BAD!!! THIS IS DUMB!! WHAAAAAT!!!' and summarizing things." to "You don't like them because they're mean and you made me mad grrrrr."

He may not have said it in an appropriate way, but it's a good point. The majority of these kinds of videos are extremely shallow. They call themselves "critiques" and "reviews", but absolutely no analysis is involved. They manufacture memes, repeat previously established gags, describe events depicted in the subject work, and occasionally overreact because screaming or hitting yourself or making funny faces = humor. They're not even concerned with the subject most of the time, they're using it as an object to garner attention and perpetuate their own jokes. That's because their plan is to, you guessed it, make money rather than discuss or enhance.
Of course I'll force this meme.jpg


I had this typed up the other day, and this has devolved into a personal conflict instead of a discussion about internet "reviewers", but I'll throw caution to the wind and point out that a good couple of the people telling Mordum he's being mean seem to like the people called out and/or people affiliated with them and keep pointing to him calling fans of stuff like History of Power Rangers illiterate...even though that's not actually what he said at first, at all. We can't just go name calling, yeah, but don't give his supposed name calling credence by proving you're not doing the thing he's supposedly saying you're incapable of doing. Saying HoP is fine because it's some guy's opinion and then chiding a poster for saying you're illiterate for liking it looks bad when the poster in question actually said that they don't think highly of people who think it's some kind of well thought out critique instead of some guy telling people his opinions.

But yeah, we're way off Soinc. Is it okay for us to open up a thread discussing internet review culture in the Bumblekourt instead, or is the well poisoned and this topic's off limits? Because it's a really nice topic to discuss.
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Re: The Completionist Reviews Sonic Heroes

Postby Mr.Unsmiley » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:15 pm

I actually find it kind of ironic that everyone focuses on Mordum being "mean" when like, in private conversations he's actually been really supportive of ideas I've had for potential stories. He is a dude who genuinely wants to foster creativity in people. So of course he'd take issue with people like Linkara who make a living off of being unsupportive and mocking other people's work.

Granted, there isn't any way you'd know this if you haven't talked to him yourself
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