Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Forum devoted to Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Universe and the entire Sonic line by Archie Comics.

Do you prefer Mainline Sonic to run on Internal or External logic?

Internal
17
77%
External
1
5%
Either one
4
18%
 
Total votes : 22

Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby DJGameFreakTheIguana » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:35 am

Mordum wrote:
ToaArcan wrote:Was anything actually gained by switching to External? All I've really seen is Genwunners getting nostalgic for a super-light-and-kiddy Mega Drive era Sonic that... just doesn't exist.


Or that's all you want to see, maybe, as it allows you to use cheesy internet slang to enforce a really closed-in, short sighted dichotomy.

No, he was pretty accurate with that, unless you want to enlighten us on why exactly is that just what he wants to see.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby The KKM » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:55 am

That only a Sith deals in absolutes?
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Mordum » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:20 am

DJGameFreakTheIguana wrote:
Mordum wrote:
ToaArcan wrote:Was anything actually gained by switching to External? All I've really seen is Genwunners getting nostalgic for a super-light-and-kiddy Mega Drive era Sonic that... just doesn't exist.


Or that's all you want to see, maybe, as it allows you to use cheesy internet slang to enforce a really closed-in, short sighted dichotomy.

No, he was pretty accurate with that, unless you want to enlighten us on why exactly is that just what he wants to see.


My argument has nothing to do with nostalgia. Not one point do I argue my position, which is the opposite of his, from a nostalgic perspective. Therefore, yes, he is objectively wrong because he has seen my posts (because he's replied to them) which have nothing to do with arguing from a nostalgic viewpoint, even though he claims all he sees is arguments rooted in nostalgia.

So logically speaking, he's either willfully seeing only what he wants to see, despite openly and publically talking with someone who flat out proves that claim wrong, or he's just lying.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby DJGameFreakTheIguana » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:50 am

Mordum wrote:
DJGameFreakTheIguana wrote:
Mordum wrote:
ToaArcan wrote:Was anything actually gained by switching to External? All I've really seen is Genwunners getting nostalgic for a super-light-and-kiddy Mega Drive era Sonic that... just doesn't exist.


Or that's all you want to see, maybe, as it allows you to use cheesy internet slang to enforce a really closed-in, short sighted dichotomy.

No, he was pretty accurate with that, unless you want to enlighten us on why exactly is that just what he wants to see.


My argument has nothing to do with nostalgia. Not one point do I argue my position, which is the opposite of his, from a nostalgic perspective. Therefore, yes, he is objectively wrong because he has seen my posts

I may not be reading it right but Toa's comment was no aimed at you directly, nor do I even see him quoting you, or even you commenting on the page until some time after him. Making me wonder what this had to do with whatever argument you made or your position. If I am reading this wrong, I'm gonna need clarification on what Toa said, in exactly what you quoted, that actually had anything to do with you personally.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Mordum » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:56 am

ToaArcan wrote:Was anything actually gained by switching to External? All I've really seen is Genwunners getting nostalgic for a super-light-and-kiddy Mega Drive era Sonic that... just doesn't exist.


He claims all he's seen are arguments rooted in nostalgia.

He has, in a way you can prove, seen in this very thread at least one major argument (even though there's BEEN more than one argument in this thread) that has nothing to do with nostalgia.

Thus, he is either willingly misconstruing information presented to him, or he is lying. This doesn't require a direct comment. He's commenting on the thread's subject as a whole and is blatantly misrepresenting the arguments of other people.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby ToaArcan » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:51 am

The KKM wrote:That only a Sith deals in absolutes?


*Vader breathing*


Anyway, for the sake of clarity, I went and re-read the thread.

I haven't had much in the way of arguments with Mordum. The two standouts are a brief discussion on the merits of RvB which ended in a "To each their own" agreement of disagreement, and a disagreement on the idea that Sonic was all about saving animals until SA1, even though that was never given focus outside of Sonic 1's manual and the games encourage you to ignore enemies for the sake of a time bonus rather than defeat them all and save the animals.

Other than that, it's primarily been Mordum posting text walls about why arguing for one in favour of the other is bad and telling people who have made points in favour of Internal that they're wrong without actually explaining what makes External itself so good. I'm not seeing any litanies of praise for Colours and Boom's storytelling here, and that's ultimately the important thing here. Whether the game runs on Internal or External logic has no absolutely affect on the gameplay, at least, not a noticeable one. It might affect the audience's reaction, if something that would normally be awesome comes off as narmish because the cutscenes have destroyed their ability to see it as anything more than a joke, but it doesn't affect the gameplay itself. This is purely a storytelling issue, and I'm sorry, but there is frankly no way that the Pontaff games come close to Unleashed, Black Knight, Battle, or SA2 in terms of story.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Gonzo » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:38 am

The sorts of stories we've gotten from Colours onward (with possible exception of RoL, which I need to stop being lazy about playing now, general opinion be darned) aren't really meant to be the same kinds of stories from the Adventure era. They're comedies first and foremost, with some dramatic moments to temper things, I think.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby ToaArcan » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:19 am

The issue there is that comedy is super-subjective, and a lot of people find the Pontaff brand of humour painfully unfunny. Meanwhile, the spectacle of the Adventure games has a more universal appeal, because what looks crazy-awesome is a lot less YMMV, at least in my experience, and if you don't like it, then it will probably look silly enough to laugh at.

For example:

Sonic breaks a sheet of metal off the wing of a helicopter, and sky-dives down to the city streets below, and then surfs on it. Awesome.

The translator jokes. Cringe-worthy.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby RaceProUK » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:48 am

ToaArcan wrote:Sonic breaks a sheet of metal off the wing of a helicopter, and sky-dives down to the city streets below, and then surfs on it.

I'm willing to bet there are just as many people out there who think that's utterly stupid as there are that dislike the Graf and Pontac scripts.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby ToaArcan » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:52 am

But it's so crazy that you can laugh at it.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Penguin God » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:41 pm

I like Unleashed and Colors because the characters feel more like they have personalities that affect the world instead of props to move a story forward. I'm also arguing there's been no switch between "internal and external" because you can look at games like SA1 and SA2 and blatantly see the plot dictating the characters instead of the other way around, and you can see character traits consistently in Unleashed, Colors and Lost World. I also think the story ideas are more novel even though they're simpler. I also like games for their gameplay more than story, so the games having better gameplay makes me more willing to put up with the times when writing is weak (which Lost World was, although it had nothing to do with internal vs external logic and everything to do with clearly being edited into incoherence.) Really, the only bit where this dumb internal vs external logic bit even applies is in Sonic Boom, which is very specifically not regular Sonic and does not pretend to be. It's a sitcom with adventure characters, and it never pretends to be anything else. I'm not even going to argue that it's good, because it's really totally irrelevant.

Or maybe I'm just some Genwunner who thinks the only thing that existed in Sonic was AoStH. That makes more sense.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby DJGameFreakTheIguana » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:29 pm

Gonzo wrote:The sorts of stories we've gotten from Colours onward (with possible exception of RoL, which I need to stop being lazy about playing now, general opinion be darned) aren't really meant to be the same kinds of stories from the Adventure era. They're comedies first and foremost, with some dramatic moments to temper things, I think.

I'm pretty sure that goes without saying.... and doesn't justify being horribly written.

RaceProUK wrote:
ToaArcan wrote:Sonic breaks a sheet of metal off the wing of a helicopter, and sky-dives down to the city streets below, and then surfs on it.

I'm willing to bet there are just as many people out there who think that's utterly stupid as there are that dislike the Graf and Pontac scripts.

For no good reason though. I mean, are we still assuming people hating stuff like that was really legit? Matter of fact, most people hating on the adventure games have been a loud minority at best, so I'm pretty sure you would lose that bet pretty easily, on the simple fact that you're betting on a small group on the internet that doesn't even represent most of the fandom. Case in point, all the people claiming the modern games are better, less people saying the same thing with their wallets.

Mordum wrote:
ToaArcan wrote:Was anything actually gained by switching to External? All I've really seen is Genwunners getting nostalgic for a super-light-and-kiddy Mega Drive era Sonic that... just doesn't exist.

He claims all he's seen are arguments rooted in nostalgia.

And that's generally been a fact for 5 years, especially the part about making the classic games out to be something they weren't
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby RaceProUK » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:34 pm

DJGameFreakTheIguana wrote:
RaceProUK wrote:
ToaArcan wrote:Sonic breaks a sheet of metal off the wing of a helicopter, and sky-dives down to the city streets below, and then surfs on it.
I'm willing to bet there are just as many people out there who think that's utterly stupid as there are that dislike the Graf and Pontac scripts.
For no good reason though. I mean, are we still assuming people hating stuff like that was really legit? Matter of fact, most people hating on the adventure games have been a loud minority at best, so I'm pretty sure you would lose that bet pretty easily, on the simple fact that you're betting on a small group on the internet that doesn't even represent most of the fandom.
Did I say 'hate'? No. What I actually said was that there's going to be lots of people that think it's utterly stupid. You'll also notice I didn't talk about people hating Graf and Pontac scripts, but disliking them.

Just because someone doesn't like something, doesn't mean they hate it; taste is a spectrum, not binary.
Equally, just because someone thinks something is utterly stupid, doesn't mean they hate it; in fact, the two are independent factors.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Mordum » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:12 pm

DJGameFreakTheIguana wrote:And that's generally been a fact for 5 years, especially the part about making the classic games out to be something they weren't


It's not a fact because that's not the case in the post right before yours.

Spoiler: show
I assume the irony of you interpreting people's opinions based on your preconceived notions of what they should represent is basically the debate version of "external logic" is lost on you, too.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby DJGameFreakTheIguana » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:14 am

RaceProUK wrote:Did I say 'hate'? No. What I actually said was

Actually, that doesn't change what I said, nor did I say you said hate.I clearly said "people who hate on SA2" AFTER I responded to people not liking the surfboard scene. The fact of the matter is that there is no good reason, and it's just badnwagoning.
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