Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Forum devoted to Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Universe and the entire Sonic line by Archie Comics.

Do you prefer Mainline Sonic to run on Internal or External logic?

Internal
17
77%
External
1
5%
Either one
4
18%
 
Total votes : 22

Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby ToaArcan » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:25 am

I think the difference there is that SOnic 3 had enough substance to it that it can be called back to quite easily while still keeping it original. It gave us a plot, which was actually told in part through the level design, it started branching out the characters' abilities (But didn't take it too far and make Tails and Knuckles a chore to play as they did once SEGA settled into their "MALE HEDGEHOGS ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN BE COOL" mentality after Heroes), it built on the lore of the Emeralds, brought in elements like the Super Emeralds, and introduced the first rogue Robotnik creation, Mecha Sonic, who was also the first villain to gain a Super form.

These days, however, SEGA seem to be borrowing more heavily from Sonic 1 and 2, which while good games, aren't quite as substantial as Sonic 3, so call-backs to them often feel more like lazy rehashing.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby The Swordsman » Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:41 pm

Mordum wrote:3. I never claimed the animals were Sonic's friends and that's completely irrelevant to my point. If I'm against the manuals as solid canonical fact to a story that's executed divorced from the data in those manuals, and I never prioritize the importance of a detail in the manual, one can logically assume that said detail is irrelevant to the point I'm making.

Most of the plot back in the 90s was in the manual,which used be well made unlike today but I digress, it wasn't until technology moved on that developers started to put all of it in the game proper. So ignoring them is unfair to the developers and hurts your points.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby FritzyBeat » Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:43 pm

That's a good point. Back in the day, manuals were of much more significance to the game they were for than they are now. These days the story can be told through in-game dialogue (or some creative in game cinematography, etc...), but back then, developers often relied a lot more on the manual to expand and explain the story in their game.

Take a look at Sonic CD, sure you can KINDA get what's going on by playing the game, but ignoring the manual means you miss out on learning about the Little Planet, why it's there, and what Robotnick plans to do with it. The original Zelda is another great example, practically the entire story is told through the manual.

It's interesting to see how today we so quickly throw them aside, since they really lost their importance with the evolution of gaming =P
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Meliden » Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:49 pm

Yeah, at the very least for the classic Sonic era, the manuals (..the Japanese ones anyway) are as much canon for that game as the events in the games. Of course, that doesn't account for later retcons to the story, or retcon that outright make the game's events non-existent.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby DJGameFreakTheIguana » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:04 am

Just wanted to ask this question, since the convo has gone down already and into points I've seen, agreed, and disagreed with before coming here(Internal Logic person BTW). Would there be anything wrong with Sega taking what was done with the Ninja Turtles from the 2K series and the CGI movies? They had a lot of action that many people want back in Sonic, while at the same time, able to deliver comedy, usually Mikey, without downgrading the characters or the overall tone of the show. I'm saying this due to how I've never seen people argue how TMNT had action and serious moments, which many people in this fanbase seem to have a problem with Sonic having, or thinking wanting to have serious moments means wanting the medium in question to be devoid of comedy. I've even seen some remark about Satam being dark, and it confuses the @#$% out of me because of how much comedy was packed into that show, and I've being going back and watching every episode.

And while I do bring up Ninja Turtles, this video about another old show I've recently went back to watch also had a lot of action and comedy, but good moments in general.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKA6EUXCS_k

Seems we can get good action and comedy from internal logic on it's own, without having to go to external.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby SonicSoul » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:03 am

Because Sonic isn't TMNT and when most fans think of a TMNT iteration that balanced light and dark tones, the 2K3 series isn't exactly amongst the first things that pop to mind.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby DJGameFreakTheIguana » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:09 pm

None of that had anything to do with what I asked, and I didn't even say TMNT balanced light and dark either. Furthermore, Sonic's character was influenced by TMNT in the first place when Sega of America wanted a new design for him when they saw the original one(Read about it in the console wars book). In any case, the whole point was taking something that was actually good, and applying what it did right to Sonic. To say though, that Sonic can't have the kind of content that 2K TMNT had, is like saying he can't have Mario's gameplay, a DBZ like super form, and a death star ripoff, because Sonic is any of the mediums they were derived from. Now I thought the archie comics had it down before the reboot, but this is mainly about the games and Boom.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby SonicSoul » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:09 pm

You're still asking a lot with saying "X had this and that, why not Y?" when I pointed how the two can't in way be comparable as well as seriously thinking ST has ever given an ounce of care to how other popular but not really comparable properties.

Forgive me if I don't immediately think of TMNT whenever I see Sonic.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby DJGameFreakTheIguana » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:27 pm

It's not like I'm saying Sonic should be exactly like TMNT, nor am I saying you should see Sonic when you see TMNT. Even if I am asking the wrong question, I could be, it's a matter of asking what would really be wrong with having it in general, but even then, you didn't even try to answer the question, and made obvious comments. At this point, you're not even telling me why exactly we can't have something like it, rather then assuming I actual expect ST to mimic something when I'm asking this question to users on a forum.
After all, I've seen many times where people cited that Sonic should be like Mario and no one raised a question about it, ST did mimic Mario is several ways, and it resulted in low sales. It gets to the point where we can't even ask Sonic to be like Sonic because not only so many people have a different idea of what Sonic is, but different taste in entertainment entirely. That usually wouldn't be a problem, but is is when Sonic wasn't really the kind of character a lot of people make him out to be, usually just because of how he looks rather then the contents we got from him.

Point is, when did internal logic in itself really become a problem rather then the poor execution of two games, when they still delivered more then games working on external logic. In fact, and I'll be blunt about this, there's really been nothing of value from working on external logic in the long run, and they seem to only work for the loud minority due to said two games. Cheap laughs is one thing, but I was getting that out of archie comics pre-reboot, and even now as I've recently started watching Satam, the show that gets called dark so often yet almost never has it's comedy brought up. In fact, from what I've read in this, any value the external logic has brought some of us were still be doing in many pieces of media that worked on Internal Logic, from rated R movies to kid friendly animation(hence TMNT).

When you get down to it, should it even be a matter of either or, and if so, why, when Internal Logic has proven to deliver more for the money spent on, especially for high priced video games.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby RaceProUK » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:37 pm

DJGameFreakTheIguana wrote:It gets to the point where we can't even ask Sonic to be like Sonic because not only so many people have a different idea of what Sonic is, but different taste in entertainment entirely. That usually wouldn't be a problem, but is is when Sonic wasn't really the kind of character a lot of people make him out to be, usually just because of how he looks rather then the contents we got from him.
An issue not helped by the myriad inconsistent and incompatible portrayals of the character over the last 25 years.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby ToaArcan » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:31 pm

Was anything actually gained by switching to External? All I've really seen is Genwunners getting nostalgic for a super-light-and-kiddy Mega Drive era Sonic that... just doesn't exist.

Let's be honest, Sonic Boom won't be able to pull off things like Scrap Brain Zone, or Eggman's few well-designed machines, or the plot structure of CD and 3&K, or the scope of the Death Egg Saga, or the nightmare fuel of organic batteries, or the importance of the Master EMerald, and even the hidden lore like the mural that foretells the battle between Hyper Sonic and Robotnik for the ME.

Yes, elements of the Mega Drive games appeared in Generations, but they were given no context beyond vague recollections of the first two levels. So Generations doesn't count as encompassing the more serious elements of the original games.

Colours and Lost World just seemed afraid of doing anything serious, following up most of the grimmer scenes like the Nega Wisp Factory and Tails' capture with some rather unfunny attempts at comedy. They also both show an inability to follow up on established plot points.
Eggman's mind control beam would make for a suitably epic climax if done right (And if there were more characters for him to use it on), but they torpedo that before Sonic even finds out what it is.

The Zeti apparently get stronger from absorbing Mobius' energy, but all that nets is Zavok getting a bit bigger and providing a rather uninspired platformer boss. Sonic still defeats them as easily as before, even knocks them all into lava when they got through a similar beating just fine when they were zone bosses (And since Runners and M&SAT are spinoffs and not canon, and chronically depressed Zor smiles as he falls in, it's safe to say that they're most likely dead), an any hope of some payoff between them in some kind of epic confrontation between Sonic and Zavok is quickly torpedoed when Eggman hijacks the plot to deliver a weak rehash of the Nega Wisp armour.

Both games also have Tails get captured and seemingly enslaved, and do exactly nothing with it, when a boss fight would be awesome.

Colours gets heaped with praise because it subverted what had become the norms. But that's all it does. It has no real substance of its own, and even the gameplay is a very "Un-Sonic" feel, consisting of a lot of claustrophobic 2D platforming, with little in the way of actual fun running segments, and the level geometry being very uninspired, and often made out endless copies of the same block texture, as opposed to the potentially beautiful vistas of other games. It's just popular because it's not like 06.

I'm not kidding when I say that I prefer SA1 to Colours, even with Big included.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby FritzyBeat » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:38 pm

I really don't have to voice any of my own opinions cause Arcan pretty much keeps beating me to the punch here :P *shot*

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with all your points for sure, though I would point out that just because these things bother me or you, I wouldn't say it makes it a bad game, just preferred for us.

What We might consider a major issue in a game might also be someone else's favorite part =P Sonic Colors still did a lot of good things, I just so happened to not enjoy most of them XP

It doesn't help that I typically only ever buy a game with the hope of hearing a good story, and the gameplay just being an added bonus. When I come across decent games that have no story, or a bad story, or a story that just doesn't interest me, It just sorta misses in the area I was looking forward to the most.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby The Shadow Imperator » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:16 pm

FritzyBeat wrote:It doesn't help that I typically only ever buy a game with the hope of hearing a good story, and the gameplay just being an added bonus. When I come across decent games that have no story, or a bad story, or a story that just doesn't interest me, It just sorta misses in the area I was looking forward to the most.

I fully agree with this.

I don't particularly like the gameplay of Sonic Adventure 2 anymore, but I'll still pop it in every now and then and replay levels just to watch the cutscenes. The same goes for Sonic Unleashed (day stages excluded of course) and Shadow the Hedgehog.

Likewise, I probably would have actually gotten Sonic Lost World if it had a story worth watching. I can tolerate subpar gameplay if there's an entertaining story attached to it. Story makes or breaks a game for me, and when I see games phoning it in with half-bit stories and lazy generic level designs I don't even bother with them. (I'm looking at you too, Mario.)
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby DJGameFreakTheIguana » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:50 am

RaceProUK wrote:An issue not helped by the myriad inconsistent and incompatible portrayals of the character over the last 25 years.

Even though I mentioned this myself, I don't even find that to be the biggest issue. You could, for example, take 4 different fans, an Adventure fan, Satam, Archie, and Fleetway fan. All of them could argue on how Sonic should be portrayed, yet all 4 version work under internal logic and had substance, giving the one thing all 4 fans would have in common: taking sonic straight. The problem we have now is that Boom and most material since 2010 doesn't take sonic straight at all, meaning all 4 fans are alienated for an entirely different set of people who don't even make the majority fanbase, many of which decided that they don't want to take Sonic straight since Shadow and 06, and declared that even past things that were considered cool were taking it too far, and pretty much everything else that was good now being a problem. It comes to a point that it's not how Sonic can be portrayed as a character, but how we should take the series at all, and it's in a direction that very many numbers prove is far less successful to pretty much a huge majority of gamers. Most console gamers usually stick to more serious games, most family friendly games are played on Nintendo consoles, and Nintendo lost a lot of their audience to the mobile business. However, there's also PC, and being an avid Steam user myself, currently owning 346 games(Some of them are free to play, some.), the market is close to the console audience. Looking at the and going back to Sonic, we can kinda of see exactly why sales have been falling short, because not only is Sonic even LESS appealing to the general public(though Sonic 4 actually made decent numbers despite the backlash), he's less appealing to his own fanbase, for reasons I stated when I started this post.

This is one of the bigger reasons why I have to scratch me head at exactly why this is debated over and over again, as I know it mainly about preferences, following the one we're on now has only done well for a select group of people. It wouldn't be so bad if Sega had done what they did before and just have multiple iterations of Sonic at once, but aside from the arhcie comics that got rebooted and are a bit watered down compared to before, and Fleetway comics which have been supported only by fans on the web, our only options have been Boom, Sonic runners, and the Olympic games(which sold less and less copied with each title), and they all of them still work in external logic then internal.

Case in point, having multiple versions of Sonic wasn't really that big of a deal, in fact, I liked pretty much all of them, but 2010 started something in such a wrong way that even AoSTH could be seen as a better execution of comedy. In all of this, one other thing I have to wonder is why the OVA was never considered for how Sonic could work despite that i hardly see any hate for it, though I could easily said the former internal mediums I brought were fine. I mean, take those 4(Adventure, Satam, Fleetway, and Archcie) can just have separate games being in 2D or 3D, and not even be full console games, but like digital and handheld games, and many people would still get into them, even if they were different. Reason why I say that is because the 3D games and 2D handheld games did fairly well side by side, and many people would agree those weren't the same. There's the classic games but it goes without saying that people liked those games, but were a blank state as far as portrayal, which wouldn't be a problem had people not made them out to be more kiddy then they really were. At the end of the day, Substance is needed over what we've been getting now, even if it's a handheld game, and that's why I loved Sonic Battle on the Advance more then any other handheld Sonic game, Chronicles coming after that.

I know, big post, but I've been out of the forum loop for a long time.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Mordum » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:01 am

ToaArcan wrote:Was anything actually gained by switching to External? All I've really seen is Genwunners getting nostalgic for a super-light-and-kiddy Mega Drive era Sonic that... just doesn't exist.


Or that's all you want to see, maybe, as it allows you to use cheesy internet slang to enforce a really closed-in, short sighted dichotomy.
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