Sonic's Taste in Human Women

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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Azul » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:47 pm

RaceProUK wrote:
Azul wrote:They'd just be walking, talking, thinking for themselves animals.

That's... pretty much the definition of 'human', actually :)


Right, which is exactly why Brian Griffin and Bugs Bunny are two prime examples of the human species.
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby RaceProUK » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:01 pm

I can see where this is going. I was hoping for a entertaining debate about the nature of humanity, but I guess I should have known better.
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Azul » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:21 pm

RaceProUK wrote:I can see where this is going. I was hoping for a entertaining debate about the nature of humanity, but I guess I should have known better.


The opportunity's still there but if you really don't want to, I won't try to convince you to change your mind. I'm practically all about entertaining debates.
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Mordum » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:23 pm

Every time I see Sonic fandom compare Sonic and Elise to bestiality I genuinely wonder if they were asleep every single time Beauty and the Beast made its rounds in pop culture.
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby RaceProUK » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:27 pm

Azul wrote:
RaceProUK wrote:I can see where this is going. I was hoping for a entertaining debate about the nature of humanity, but I guess I should have known better.


The opportunity's still there but if you really don't want to, I won't try to convince you to change your mind. I'm practically all about entertaining debates.

If that was true, you wouldn't have replied with a scoff of derision.
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:30 pm

Mordum wrote:Every time I see Sonic fandom compare Sonic and Elise to bestiality I genuinely wonder if they were asleep every single time Beauty and the Beast made its rounds in pop culture.


Hey welcome back Mordum. Also great point. Why are Belle and Beast okay but if you pair Sonic Characters with human's it Bestiality?
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby GentlemanX » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:47 pm

There is the fact Beast was originally and then returns to being a human. It's the same rationale as the princess that kisses the frog and gets a handsome prince. That's the difference between the beast that was a man and the Sonic that is a hedgehog.

Having said that, I also don't have a problem with inter-species romance in fiction,it is fiction after all. It's supposed to be about different ideas which don't exist in the real world. What if animals were capable of higher thought? How would they interact with us? How would we react to them? If they suddenly became cognizant? If it was gradual evolution? If it was a matter of discovery? There's a lot to work with there. There's also all sorts of racial and ethical analogies when you use animals and humans. Now racist sentiments condemned the same kind of thought years ago, and animals are generally considered ignorant due to their placement in the real world. Many Sonic fans just see Sonic as a cartoon hedgehog, by extension the rest of the cast with him. So when you pair him with a human, people will ignore the fictional world's likely unique conventions and focus on the real world implications. Because that's easier.
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Azul » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:49 pm

SonicBlueRanger wrote:
Mordum wrote:Every time I see Sonic fandom compare Sonic and Elise to bestiality I genuinely wonder if they were asleep every single time Beauty and the Beast made its rounds in pop culture.


Hey welcome back Mordum. Also great point. Why are Belle and Beast okay but if you pair Sonic Characters with human's it Bestiality?


:o My boy is back. And I think the issue stems from the fact that Prince Adam is just a human clad in fur while Sonic is just... clad in fur. GentlemanX beat me to the punch :(

RaceProUK wrote:If that was true, you wouldn't have replied with a scoff of derision.


Not true, I was genuinly interested in hearing you defend your case. Although the derision was actually banter and it stems from the gap in logic with your broad definition of what a human is, espicially within the context of this conversation. But if you gon' be like that... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:52 pm

Whoa boy, I started a war, didn't I?

Let's try different approach. Azul, let's say I don't know what "bestiality" means. Explain to me in simple words, like to a retard, why mister Mobian and miss Human can't be together, if they really love each other and don't care that other is from different specie?
(again, let's ignore interspecies children problem)
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:53 pm

GentlemanX wrote:There is the fact Beast was originally and then returns to being a human. It's the same rationale as the princess that kisses the frog and gets a handsome prince. That's the difference between the beast that was a man and the Sonic that is a hedgehog.


Well yeah but Belle clearly falls in love with him when he's a big shaggy creature and not a Dude.
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Mordum » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:03 pm

GentlemanX wrote:There is the fact Beast was originally and then returns to being a human. It's the same rationale as the princess that kisses the frog and gets a handsome prince. That's the difference between the beast that was a man and the Sonic that is a hedgehog.


Which is fair, but it does sly away a bit from the fact that Belle falls in love with Beast while he's a beast. She's not thinking, in that moment she's declaring love, that he'll magically turn into a man. She is genuinely in love with a talking beast monster. Your overall point is correct, but the way the movie's actually written quibbles a bit.

Picking Gargoyles probably would've been easier, since it's still Disney, was partially made to capitalize on the popularity of Beauty and the Beast, and actually did not feature a Beast who goes human in the end. But eh.

On the whole, though, I feel like if you choose to perceive Sonic and Elise's relationship as having romantic undertones, the burden is on that person to prove that it's paraphilic in nature, not to demand to be told how it isn't. Zoophilia is specifically a physical and emotional attraction to non-human animals. Sonic is literally a human-animal. We know that, at the very least, Sonic Adventure 2 makes it clear that Sonic is a "world renowned hero", so the logic that 06 is playing by very likely doesn't assume there's any sort of bad blood between Elise and Sonic's species. Even in the real world, zoophilia is not generally considered by modern psychology to necessarily be related to the intrigue and desire to be with humans with anthropomorphized animal traits, so it'd come off like that even LESS so in a world where there're actual animal people walking around. Considering we have nothing at any part of 06 that gives any hint or indication that Elise kissing Sonic is actually outright weird (surprising, maybe, but not weird), the evidence drawn would conclude that there's nothing weird about Sonic and Elise. Sonic is as human as anyone else is by the standards of the people living in that world.

The comics may've made such and such distinctions, but we have no reason to believe the games ever have. By the standards of the game world and what can be drawn from context, Sonic can be validly considered a human or human equivalent, with all the implications that apply.
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Azul » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:40 pm

MetalSkulkBane wrote:Whoa boy, I started a war, didn't I?

Let's try different approach. Azul, let's say I don't know what "bestiality" means. Explain to me in simple words, like to a retard, why mister Mobian and miss Human can't be together, if they really love each other and don't care that other is from different specie?
(again, let's ignore interspecies children problem)


Yeah, let's maybe not use the r-word. That could start a war. And I think this is a rather tame discussion so far.

Beastality its sexual relations with animals. Although, I realize my mistake here is using the wrong word. Zoophilia would be the right word, which is sexual attraction towards animals. Beastality merely refers to the act of sax.

I'm just not game for zoophilic representation in Sonic because I really don't like it, espicially the implications surrounding it. Because man and animal alike both have needs and uh, I'll leave it at that. However, I'm perfectly aware of relations where such a thing doesn't happen due to preference, which is rare and that still means there could be others that do particiapate in such activites. Besides, we already know so much about the anatomy and biology of humans because, no duh we're humans, but everything we know about mobian biology and "equipment" is all based purely on speculation and the thought of it makes me cringe and feel awful talking about it and why you do dis to me Metal

Mordum wrote:On the whole, though, I feel like if you choose to perceive Sonic and Elise's relationship as having romantic undertones, the burden is on that person to prove that it's paraphilic in nature, not to demand to be told how it isn't. Zoophilia is specifically a physical and emotional attraction to non-human animals. Sonic is literally a human-animal. We know that, at the very least, Sonic Adventure 2 makes it clear that Sonic is a "world renowned hero", so the logic that 06 is playing by very likely doesn't assume there's any sort of bad blood between Elise and Sonic's species. Even in the real world, zoophilia is not generally considered by modern psychology to necessarily be related to the intrigue and desire to be with humans with anthropomorphized animal traits, so it'd come off like that even LESS so in a world where there're actual animal people walking around. Considering we have nothing at any part of 06 that gives any hint or indication that Elise kissing Sonic is actually outright weird (surprising, maybe, but not weird), the evidence drawn would conclude that there's nothing weird about Sonic and Elise. Sonic is as human as anyone else is by the standards of the people living in that world.

The comics may've made such and such distinctions, but we have no reason to believe the games ever have. By the standards of the game world and what can be drawn from context, Sonic can be validly considered a human or human equivalent, with all the implications that apply.


Maybe human-like but I think classifying him as a human is a bit of a stretch. Anthros in Sonic's world are no big deal and the implication is that it ain't no thang. They're people, with thoughts, feelings, opinions, the works. Maybe the humans of Sonic's world acknowledge that anthros are sentient and independant beings not unlike humans but whilst at the same time acknowledging that they are not technically human.

Futhermore, what do you percieve that people of Sonic's world consider to be human? Is it a species? A combination of specific psychological and physical characteristics? Is Sonic a human just because he walks on two and counts on fives and can crack fourth wall breaking jokes? Because, and do correct me if I'm wrong, that sounds like you could call Martian Manhunter human simply for his sentience.
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby Mordum » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:54 pm

Martian Manhunter does not exist in Sonic's world and therefore plays by different rules. If my argument is specifically about how Sonic's world determines and interprets the nature of species, pulling out a character from a completely different comic is a massive non-argument and bordering on a logical fallacy. This is all ignoring that "Martian" is, in fact, the human of his planet and Martian biology is all about shapeshifting, which makes biological incompatibility a non-issue if there ever was one.

The rest of your reply to me is...supporting my argument, so I'm not really sure what you want me to say. You're arguing against yourself at this point and expecting your kneejerk emotional response to the subject to be valid enough to hold up.

It seems beyond clear that nobody in the games sees any difference in humanity between humans who are distantly related to apes or humans who are closely related to hedgehogs. Rouge and Shadow are employed by a human run government who don't even bat an eye at their species. Elise can swoon like the girl next door at Sonic and neither of their reactions, or anyone else's, implies this is socially frowned upon. Sonic is considered a world renowned hero and Shadow's crimes are so surprising because nobody would've expected this world's paragon of virtue, a non-human, to perform criminal and terrorist acts. The fact Sonic did it was surprising, there's nothing to indicate anyone thought that of course less-than-human beings would be criminals. In the games, prejudice toward human-animals not only doesn't exist, but these differences literally do not, at any meaningful point I can think of, occur to people at any point.

It is a consistent fact of this interpretation of this world that there is no meaningful difference between humans and human-animals. Sonic is basically human in this world's logic.
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby RaceProUK » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:36 pm

Azul wrote:Although the derision was actually banter and it stems from the gap in logic with your broad definition of what a human is, espicially within the context of this conversation.

Well, that's not how it came across, but now you've clarified, let's get back to the topic at hand.

So I was wondering where exactly people see the line with all this inter-sapient-species stuff. Take this hypothetical for example:
  • There's this human guy, he's a pretty typical human-guy type of human guy, let's call him Rob.
  • Next up is an anthropomorphic vixen called Hanna; she's about the same age and height as Rob.
  • And finally, we have an alien called Maria, who just happens to look like an anthropomorphic lynx, but is actually an alieny sort of alien that just happens to be a cute fuzzball.
  • All three are fully sapient, legally sane, and of consenting age.

My question is this: what makes Rob and Hanna an objectionable pairing, but Rob and Maria OK? And for the bonus round, what about Hanna and Maria?
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Re: Sonic's Taste in Human Women

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:38 pm

Azul wrote:
MetalSkulkBane wrote:Explain to me in simple words, like to a retard


Yeah, let's maybe not use the r-word. That could start a war. And I think this is a rather tame discussion so far.

Ups, that a no no word? Sorry, I'm not english born speaker, sometimes I get confused which word is too strong to use. :oops:
Then again, I called this myself, sooo I guess it's okay?

Azul wrote:Beastality its sexual relations with animals. Although, I realize my mistake here is using the wrong word. Zoophilia would be the right word, which is sexual attraction towards animals. Beastality merely refers to the act of sax.

I'm just not game for zoophilic representation in Sonic because I really don't like it, especially the implications surrounding it. Because man and animal alike both have needs and uh, I'll leave it at that. However, I'm perfectly aware of relations where such a thing doesn't happen due to preference, which is rare and that still means there could be others that do participate in such activities. Besides, we already know so much about the anatomy and biology of humans because, no duh we're humans, but everything we know about mobian biology and "equipment" is all based purely on speculation and the thought of it makes me cringe and feel awful talking about it and why you do dis to me Metal

And this is where we differ. I don't care about this part.
I know that on basic level love is just a way for us to reproduce. But when I see Sonic and... no wait: assuming that I would support Sonic X Elise, I wouldn't consider how they would do it. Heck, Sonic isn't adult and he doesn't age, they won't do it. I would think "aww, isn't love lovely? I'm going to commision pics with them and other things shippers do".
I don't care what they will do later. Normal sex can be creepy too, I just don't think about it.

Besides, you know about Vector X Vanilla shipping? He's a reptile and she's a mammal. Shouldn't that be even creepier possibility?
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