Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Forum devoted to Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Universe and the entire Sonic line by Archie Comics.

Your Favorite Sonic Univers Arc Before Reboot

Mobius XYL ( SU 5- SU 8 )
1
2%
Knuckles The Return ( SU 9- SU 12 )
3
7%
Tails Adventure ( SU 17- SU 20 )
8
20%
Treasure Team Tango ( SU 21- SU 24 )
7
17%
Silver Saga ( SU 25- SU 28 )
5
12%
Scourge: Lock Down (SU 29- SU 32)
4
10%
Babylon Rising (SU 33- SU 36)
1
2%
Scrambled (SU 37- SU 40)
2
5%
Secret Freedom (SU 41- SU 44)
5
12%
Chaotix Quest (SU 46- SU 49)
5
12%
 
Total votes : 41

Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby Spin » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:57 am

Shadow Saga was better just for that exact reason. Having three short stories in four issues to divulge Shadow was far more rewarding than wasting four months on an entire arc that amounted to four teams playing keep away with a Sol Emerald with iffy humor. If I had to exclude Shadow Saga, it'd be a tossup between Knuckles Return or Scourge Lockdown.

Knuckles Returns gave us Knuckles, the Chaotix, and the Downunda Freedom Fighters fighting non-echidna Dark Egg Legion and Finitevus. Got to see Julie Su do something and hinted Vector origin. Just a good story with good characters.

Scourge Lockdown was different from the usual Sonic narrative. Which was one of my reasons for liking it. Villain who's an alternate version of Sonic is abused and knocked around in an interdimenional prison, until Fiona and the Destructix fake capture in an attempt to break him out. We got the return of two oldschool ArchieSonic characters, flashbacks of the Destructix, and got to see Scourge work his way from nothing back to his cocky self.

FancyFool wrote:Cream supporting Sonally? No. Amy getting very angry at Cream and giving her the icicle speech bub- NO!!! Those are things that should NEVER happen and, in the case of the latter, are detrimental since they fuel the arguments that Amy is "abusive" and can easily make people think Amy and Cream shouldn't be friends. Amy and Cream are best friends: they are supposed to be unofficial sisters like how Sonic and Tails are unofficial brothers. Never make a scene like that again. Please.

Amy and Cream were also just starting out as friends back then, so it would make sense for a little tension to happen.

Cream knows Amy better in the video games and knows not to question her crush on Sonic, heck when Amy introduced Emerl to Cream as "the robot Sonic got for us to be a family". Cream knew Amy was overreacting with a misunderstanding and tried to correct her. But Amy was quick to get defensive and asked her to clarify but Cream knew to change the subject to avoid an argument.
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:04 am

FancyFool wrote:Holy guano, Rouge's characterization... Look, I get that Rouge is an anti-hero; she's not nice, she's greedy, and does things mostly for her own gain. But Rouge is not evil and especially not heartless, yet throughout the entire Arc she was determined as heck to take the Sol Emerald for herself, even after learning that an ENTIRE WORLD will die off without that gem. Rouge's obsession with gems has limits and stuff like preserving entire worlds, preventing their destruction, is one of those things that makes Rouge ignore her greed. Her characterization also conflicts with an earlier issue, the one where Evil Sonic becomes Scourge; Scourge was just about to kill Locke and Rouge was quick to stop him and makes it very clear that she does not condone killing. "You want to run with me? Then no body count" are her exact words in that issue. Yet here she is in this Arc, trying to take a gem and willingly dooming, at the very least, BILLIONS of lives...

Oh yeah, another problem with TTT that is admittedly very minor (and to some, not a problem at all) but is something I DESPISE nonetheless, this panel... (Spoilered for size)
Spoiler: show
Image

Cream supporting Sonally? No. Amy getting very angry at Cream and giving her the icicle speech bub- NO!!! Those are things that should NEVER happen and, in the case of the latter, are detrimental since they fuel the arguments that Amy is "abusive" and can easily make people think Amy and Cream shouldn't be friends. Amy and Cream are best friends: they are supposed to be unofficial sisters like how Sonic and Tails are unofficial brothers. Never make a scene like that again. Please.


I wondered if someone will call it out. Yeah, admittedly it was reeeeally stupid. Rouge wouldn't even keep the stupid gem, It would be better if they didn't talk how world will end without it.
I just try to ignore it and don't let it spoil me the joy of, otherwise, really good story.

But second thing doesn't bother me at all. Ryan summed it up quite nicely.
Last edited by MetalSkulkBane on Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:20 am

FancyFool wrote:But... There is one very major problem with TTT that prevents me from making it my most favorite: Rouge's characterization...

Holy guano, Rouge's characterization... Look, I get that Rouge is an anti-hero; she's not nice, she's greedy, and does things mostly for her own gain. But Rouge is not evil and especially not heartless, yet throughout the entire Arc she was determined as heck to take the Sol Emerald for herself, even after learning that an ENTIRE WORLD will die off without that gem. Rouge's obsession with gems has limits and stuff like preserving entire worlds, preventing their destruction, is one of those things that makes Rouge ignore her greed. Her characterization also conflicts with an earlier issue, the one where Evil Sonic becomes Scourge; Scourge was just about to kill Locke and Rouge was quick to stop him and makes it very clear that she does not condone killing. "You want to run with me? Then no body count" are her exact words in that issue. Yet here she is in this Arc, trying to take a gem and willingly dooming, at the very least, BILLIONS of lives...


This. I'm a huge Rouge fan and her characterization not just in TTT but Pre-Reboot altogether is just awful. She's much better now.
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby FancyFool » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:51 am

MetalSkulkBane wrote:I wondered if someone will call it out. Yeah, admittedly it was reeeeally stupid. Rouge wouldn't even keep the stupid gem, It would be better if they didn't talk how world will end without it.

Indeed. Maybe if they didn't explain the Sol Emerald's necessity for the Sol Dimension (I don't care if it's called the "Sol Zone" in the comics, it will always be the "Sol Dimension" to me) then Rouge's behavior would've been a bit more justified. But then, that probably has the negative effect of making Blaze look like an idiot for not explaining the emerald's importance to her world, which is the very first thing she would do anyway methinks. So, either Rouge acts like an irredeemably greedy bat ignorant to the stakes the emerald would prevent or Blaze would look like an idiot for not straight up telling her why she needs the emerald so badly. I guess you could go the route of Rouge simply not believing Blaze's story, assuming that wasn't the case to begin with, but then again that wouldn't make sense given the world Rouge lives in.

Ryannumber1gamer wrote:Cream isn't supporting Sonally. She's stating the fact that at that time, Sonic was dating Sally, and Amy really didn't have a right to claim the two would be together. You're also overreacting. They're best friends yes, but they can still get annoyed with each other. Brothers, Sisters, Best Friends, they all tend to get on each other's nerves at times. It's just life. The icicle speech bub isn't to show anger or hatred, it's to show distain because Amy knows she can't think up an argument to defend herself, so she wants Cream to drop it. If Tails began telling Knuckles about Sonic's real name, I'm pretty sure Sonic'd react in the same way. It's just telling them to drop the subject, nothing more, nothing less, and I honestly think you're taking it far too seriously.

Spin wrote:Amy and Cream were also just starting out as friends back then, so it would make sense for a little tension to happen.

Cream knows Amy better in the video games and knows not to question her crush on Sonic, heck when Amy introduced Emerl to Cream as "the robot Sonic got for us to be a family". Cream knew Amy was overreacting with a misunderstanding and tried to correct her. But Amy was quick to get defensive and asked her to clarify but Cream knew to change the subject to avoid an argument.

Okay, good points and my apologies for the overreaction (very bad habit of mine that I'm trying to work on). I'll admit, though, I'm just REALLY critical of how Amy and Cream's interactions are handled in various media because there are a lot of people who question the friendship between Amy and Cream. Seriously, a lot of people don't think of Amy and Cream as very good friends, especially compared to Sonic and Tails's friendship, and thanks to Battle, Rush, Free Riders, and bits of Sonic X, plenty of people actually consider Amy and Cream's friendship to be "abusive." Either way, not many people find Amy and Cream to be genuine friends and it doesn't help at all that Rush had Cream acting as Blaze's guide and gave them far more genuine friendship moments and Boom making an entirely new character to act as Amy's BFF instead of importing Cream. And wouldn't you know it, there are plenty of people who think Amy and Sticks are better friends than Amy and Cream ever were...
The Archie Comics do a better job with Amy and Cream's relationship than any other media overall, so I'm glad for that (though I will say again, Cream NEEDS to start going on missions RIGHT NOW so we can get more good interactions between them cause Cream and Amy aren't going to get additional interactions if Cream is forever confined to Sky Patrol), but panels like this can easily ruin that by giving people a bad impression. "If Amy is going to talk to Cream like that, then maybe they shouldn't be friends" is what those people are going to think and they will actively use this panel as evidence for their argument and they already have ample evidence in the form of Battle, Rush, and Free Riders. The last thing we (or at least I) need is giving those people more evidence to fuel their argument...
I'll also admit, I also despise that panel because it easily makes SonAmy look bad as well and can be used as evidence against the pairing, which we (or, again, at least I) really don't need. I remember looking at the notes of a post of that panel on Tumblr and saw someone seriously say in response to it "This is why I don't support SonAmy."

Anyway, sorry to go off-topic like that (assuming it is off-topic). I would talk about another SU Arc that I enjoyed to make up for that but this post is long enough and I'm tired of making overly long posts. So, carry on.
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:23 pm

Tough call, but I'll always have a soft spot for the initial four issue arc.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby ezioauditore97 » Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:27 pm

Secret Freedom for me although Treasure Team Tango was a really fun arc that showcased the game characters first and foremost in a really fun way and did that really well.
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby Unknownshadow675 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:12 am

Mikail wrote:I wouldn't consider the Shadow Saga just a series of one shots, because there's an underlying theme throughout the entire arc. Dealing with failure.

With perhaps a minor exception in SU #2, the entirety of this arc features Shadow selling himself short due to the expectations he sets for himself. These issues could have been just him doing cool stuff and just being Sonic's "Dark Double" but it wasn't. It shows Shadow facing considerable obstacles, and how he copes when he believes he falls short. It's important to him that he doesn't fail because he thinks that to fail is to to disgrace his creator. If he's less than perfect, he'll feel like less than nothing. That's something that I think many people can relate to.

Sure, the actual plots in the arc may be kinda one shot, but I think the theme is what ties it all together.

The fact that your right about that makes me kinda despise Shadow Fall more for being my second least favorite SU Arc (With PPP ranking first.). And to an extent Total Eclipse.

But anyway, I enjoyed all the Pre-reboot SU arcs that I've read.

Normally I'd say The Shadow Saga is my favorite regardless of what poles me are the options, but I suppose saying it's a tie Between Scrambled, TTT, Fractured Mirror, and That One with the Character doing the Thing is good enough.

I also just noticed the title says pool.
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby Meliden » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:27 am

Unknownshadow675 wrote:I also just noticed the title says pool.


Clearly a demonstration of the fact that you're swimming in options.

Spoiler: show
:P
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:33 am

Unknownshadow675 wrote:The fact that your right about that makes me kinda despise Shadow Fall more for being my second least favorite SU Arc (With PPP ranking first.). And to an extent Total Eclipse.


Shesh, I thought only I feel that Sonic Universes got worse after reboot.
And sorry for not posting Shadow Saga (in fact SU 1 is my favorite issue), but I had only 10 spots.

Unknownshadow675 wrote:I also just noticed the title says pool.

:!:
Ummm, It makes sense, in the context! If you don't get it you're not real Sonic fan! (runs away quickly).
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby Kellox » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:59 am

FancyFool wrote:I actually voted for Treasure Team Tango but, after some consideration, I think the Tails' Adventure Arc is my most favorite of the Pre-Reboot SU Arcs.
Of all the SU Arcs, Tails' Adventure was the most interesting/entertaining to me and had the least problems, story-wise or character-wise. Tails (who's been a favorite character of mine for the longest time) finally gets his own Arc, one that is written good for once and has him being awesome throughout. Bunnie and Antoine, two characters who usually neglected in the main series (especially Bunnie), get to share some much needed page-time while thankfully not taking too much from Tails. The Battle Bird Armada are reintroduced to a new and larger audience with fleshed-out personalities that helps stand them out from their original appearance in a then obscure game, not to mention having a connection with the Babylonians which I find intriguing. The art and setting is top-notch, the story well paced, and I especially love the humor (the bumbling and surprisingly polite Armada soldiers, Antoine freaking out over the door at the top of the "mountain," everyone having trouble pronouncing Dr. Fukurokov's name which in turn enrages him, Antoine annoying the absolute crap out of Tails when reminiscing the old days, and that little Princess Bride reference). The story may not be big in the grand scheme of things, merely a diversion, but it's personally a very entertaining and well put together arc.

Back to Treasure Team Tango though, I still favor that one greatly and it's a definite second place in my list of favorite SU Arcs. Having Amy and Cream as the focus and being Cream's first adventure in the comic after being denied into the comics for EIGHT YEARS automatically earns this Arc a lot of points. Appearances from a character who rarely appears and two teams with infrequent appearances is always welcome. The plot is fun and has many funny moments (For me personally, Angry Cream was the best. We need more of that). Overall, it's good and evidently many people agree. I'm also glad it got some people, like you MetalSkulkBane, to start liking Cream. Indeed, looking back, this Arc not only handled Cream the best but she actually did some legit stuff and I can let her occasional "ineffectiveness" slide since this is her very first foray into adventuring. At least she's not being a waitress and giving one character a band-aid for a negligible wound while the official member of the Freedom Fighters :roll:
But... There is one very major problem with TTT that prevents me from making it my most favorite: Rouge's characterization...

Holy guano, Rouge's characterization... Look, I get that Rouge is an anti-hero; she's not nice, she's greedy, and does things mostly for her own gain. But Rouge is not evil and especially not heartless, yet throughout the entire Arc she was determined as heck to take the Sol Emerald for herself, even after learning that an ENTIRE WORLD will die off without that gem. Rouge's obsession with gems has limits and stuff like preserving entire worlds, preventing their destruction, is one of those things that makes Rouge ignore her greed. Her characterization also conflicts with an earlier issue, the one where Evil Sonic becomes Scourge; Scourge was just about to kill Locke and Rouge was quick to stop him and makes it very clear that she does not condone killing. "You want to run with me? Then no body count" are her exact words in that issue. Yet here she is in this Arc, trying to take a gem and willingly dooming, at the very least, BILLIONS of lives...

Oh yeah, another problem with TTT that is admittedly very minor (and to some, not a problem at all) but is something I DESPISE nonetheless, this panel... (Spoilered for size)
Spoiler: show
Image

Cream supporting Sonally? No. Amy getting very angry at Cream and giving her the icicle speech bub- NO!!! Those are things that should NEVER happen and, in the case of the latter, are detrimental since they fuel the arguments that Amy is "abusive" and can easily make people think Amy and Cream shouldn't be friends. Amy and Cream are best friends: they are supposed to be unofficial sisters like how Sonic and Tails are unofficial brothers. Never make a scene like that again. Please.


It was a joke, Cream was just correcting Amy. Besides if I am not mistaken that was a reference to Sonic Rush where Amy got angry at Cream , because Cream said that Amy's love for Sonic was perhaps shortsighted and when Amy showed her hammer Cream yelled out: Not again! implying that Cream and Amy rose have these discussions often when Cream corrects Amy or says something about Amy's crush on Sonic that she doesnt like.

And too be fair, many best friends do fight at times.
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby Xabin » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:44 pm

Heh, no one's voted for M:XYL, yet. Does anyone actually like that arc? I don't think I've met anyone who didn't have at least something negative to say about it...
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:09 pm

Xabin wrote:Heh, no one's voted for M:XYL, yet. Does anyone actually like that arc? I don't think I've met anyone who didn't have at least something negative to say about it...


I did (maybe I should give more then 1 vote per person).
What to not like? Main characters are likable (Lara, King Sonic, Lien-Da, Sonia & Manic), action is decent and well paced, a bit epic on finale, Yardley's art is great.
People probably don't like it because it's not part of main universe and lacks our favorite characters (admittedly New FF are kinda boring, just copies of old team. Also, Silver is pushed in just to be there). Only other problem I can think of is unexplained turning Shadow and Tikal/Chaos into villains, but this is alternative reality, stuff like that happen.
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby DudestofGuys » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:29 pm

MetalSkulkBane wrote:What's to not like?

Exceptionally heavy on exposition and reliant on previous Mobius: 25 Years Later continuity (especially the first issue, which is supposed to be the hook).

Lack of focus compared to other arcs. Who's the protagonist again? Lara? Sonic? Neither of them are very well developed, you can just glean some information. What's the conflict again? Isn't it just kind of a series of events? "Bad people started bad things and it escalates" without much else to it? I mean, the antagonists change in every issue except the first, from Lien-Da's Legion remnants to Shadow to Tikhaos. The supposed protagonists don't actually change, interact with the antagonists that much, or really have any purpose in the plot aside from rallying the ensemble of heroes together. And the kids save the day at the end because...foreshadowing future importance? It's a twist? It makes them relevant?

There's an absolute overflow of characters thrown at the audience for a simple four part story and most of them are redundant.

Silver's here! Oh wait, he's unconscious! Wait, why is he here again? Why were Tails and Mina here? Just to shove their kids into the storyline? Rutan shows up, but he's not actually very important to all this. How are the protagonists being challenged before Tikhaos shows up again? It's kinda just Sonic telling others (and the audience) that he probably needs help without really showing it and a bunch of kids tagging along and helping him retake the castle in issues 2 and 3.

It's more nuanced than that, I'll admit, but it's a really sloppy, messy story that exists more to give more elements and character to MXYL (and plug Silver) than to tell a fun story.

People probably don't like it because it's not part of main universe and lacks our favorite characters

One of my favorite 90's era stories (despite its terrible art) was Dan Slott's Giant Robotno and the arc was made because MXYL was popular with fans.
So no. It's unpopular because it's mediocre.
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby Mobotropolis » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:04 pm

My problem with XYL (all versions) was that it didn't really serve as an epilogue for the characters who exist in the present. They were just sort of there, or not, while vaguely interesting things happened around them. What we got was a story focused on new characters that the audience had no emotional attachment to because these characters didn't exist before the storyline.

Surprisingly, I think the original XYL (Pender's version) did the better job as serving as an endbook for the present characters and building up new characters organically. Sure that mostly focused on Lara-Su and other inhabitants of Angel Island but maybe that was what should have happened instead of dumping like 7 kids on us at once and expecting us to care about them beyond " oh, they're -main character's- kid and they're just like them! ". We got other stuff like Rotor's vague relationship with Cobar, Julie-Su and Lien-da on better terms, Knuckles having to say goodbye to Locke, and the misery that was King Sonic's post-marriage life.

The SU version of XYL was pretty much any average " this story is set in the future " that involved the protagonists kids. The setting was introduced and it was kind of interesting. Then we got the problem tossed in. The older parents who have experience and whatnot try to handle it but they're clearly too old/out of shape to do anything. So the kids save the day and the mantle is passed and blah-blah-blah.

Why should I care about the kids, again? Besides that they're clones of their parents who now have a similar role to their parents? No time was spent developing the kids into their own characters. Instead we spent time name-dropping about a half dozen plot points that were not important or even relevant to this story. XYL didn't seem to be interested in entertaining you now with a compelling story. It was a build up to a big dumb fight that was meant to set up another story that never got the chance to happen.

Only other problem I can think of is unexplained turning Shadow and Tikal/Chaos into villains

King Shadow becoming a villain was explained in Ian's first shot at this 'verse. Without Sonic's influence to guide him towards becoming a Hero Shadow did what he thought was best for Mobius. That included killing Eggman and enforcing his own brand of personal justice.

Tikal/Chaos and like 10 other different shout outs were never explained.
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Re: Best Preboot Sonic Universe Arc (pool)

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:23 pm

Okay, you made your point. Doing too much is a two edged sword, it can make story huge or turn it into a mess.

I'm kinda surprised that Scrambled did so badly. I though everybody loves Eggman.
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