Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Forum devoted to Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Universe and the entire Sonic line by Archie Comics.

Do you agree with this?

Yes
5
22%
Sorta
3
13%
Meh
7
30%
No Way!
6
26%
This guy is a stinky poo face!
2
9%
 
Total votes : 23

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby Penguin God » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:19 pm

The story's been more about Sonic ever since the modern run started. He's the star of most arcs, he's gotten as many character beats as anybody else before and after the reboot, we go into his head more than absolutely anybody else. There's an ensemble cast, but he's in no way in the background. Sally hasn't led the comic since what, issue 125? After the reboot she's still the most prominent Freedom Fighter, but she never takes over a story where Sonic's in it.
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:58 pm

Penguin God wrote:The story's been more about Sonic ever since the modern run started. He's the star of most arcs, he's gotten as many character beats as anybody else before and after the reboot, we go into his head more than absolutely anybody else. There's an ensemble cast, but he's in no way in the background. Sally hasn't led the comic since what, issue 125? After the reboot she's still the most prominent Freedom Fighter, but she never takes over a story where Sonic's in it.


Whenever I see people complain that Sonic's in the background in recent issues I genuinely if they actually read these comics.
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby Mr.Unsmiley » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:34 pm

if anything I'd be interested in seeing less Sonic. I realize it's his franchise and it's what Sega wants at the forefront of the marketing, but in the games I'm usually more interested in the other characters when I get the chance to play them, and I enjoy seeing what they're up to in the comics as well.
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby Mobotropolis » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:50 am

If Sonic isn't going to be challenged I would like to see less of him.

I admittedly do not like Sonic, but I think he's at his best when someone pushes back.
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby DoNotDelete » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:38 am

To their credit - and as much as people complain about the shortness of the stories in the current two 10-page story split issue format - I think the people at Archie Sonic have done that so that they can deliver a main Sonic story as well as a backup not-Sonic story to try and keep everybody happy - the people who want a Sonic story and those who want a not-Sonic story.

I've also wondered if the current split format is trying to make up for people becoming weary of the shattered world crisis - the backup story possibly offering some relief from the 'drudgery' of that ongoing quest.

Not that I've personally really had a problem with the shattered world crisis going on for this long, though in retrospect it might have been better to have not set out to make it such a long-term project.

Mobotropolis wrote:I admittedly do not like Sonic, but I think he's at his best when someone pushes back.

I've always preferred strong and characterful villains myself - and for all his faults Scourge was a challenging rival for Sonic. I don't think we have anyone who 'pushes back' against Sonic as well as he did - at least not presently.
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:16 am

Seemed like the comic went on forever with Sonic being the least-important character in his own book. Sally was the leader, Tails was the Chosen One, Knuckles was a demi-god who got to beat Robotnik, Shadow was the Ultimate Life Form (okay, so that's on the games), and so on. Yeah, he had the billionth ring, big whup. Didn't that stop being relevant a long time ago?

I was happy in the old continuity when Ian finally bothered to make Sonic something special of his own, and I like his role now.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby Mobotropolis » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:35 am

Penders did that. Karl started to fix it. Ian actually fixed it.

Maybe too much. I thought that " Embodiment of Chaos " thing or whatever was happening before the reboot may have been a bit too much, though Eggman's workaround eventually got clever. Can't hurt Sonic? That's fine. Let's hurt his friends.

Too bad a thing like that will only really work once.
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby WiNTER BELLS » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:07 am

Mobotropolis wrote:Maybe too much. I thought that " Embodiment of Chaos " thing or whatever was happening before the reboot may have been a bit too much, though Eggman's workaround eventually got clever. Can't hurt Sonic? That's fine. Let's hurt his friends.

I actually really liked that bit. It's a given that Sonic will always triumph in the end, as most comics tend to show, but the "Embodiment of Chaos" factor made Sonic a sort of double edged sword that could potentially beat impossible odds, but could also doom everyone from existing alone.

Anyhoo, I agree with the characters being quite bland in the reboot, but slightly less-so in the previous continuity. I feel like a lot of the character development was cut off, due to the nonsense that brought about the reboot, but I disagree that all of it was simply solved as quickly as you suggest. True, Rotor was essentially dead as an important character, and so was Antione. However, Antione's "death" brought out more strife in Bunny in the form of her feelings of helplessness from being "de-roboticized", things happened with her off-panel, but I'm fairly sure she was just on the back-burner until other things were covered. Sally being roboticized, took her "out" of the story, but forced other characters to cope with 1. Perhaps THE most important figure in the FF, and 2. Sonic losing what was possibly (and no longer in the reboot) the most important individual in his life. Not to mention future development with Sally assuming she'd return from her state. So it seems kind of unfair to say she couldn't be challenged... As a machine, no, but it certainly sets groundwork. Tails... I honestly can't remember much of Tails, which is a bad sign. Sonic has always been a character who sort of "rolls with the punches" which is part of what makes him so unlikable, which is why I miss his relationship with Sally so much because it was something he couldn't simply "roll with" because of her character. Also, people tend to constantly associate excessive drama with this relationship, so I'm just going to say that not all relationships have to be excessive drama. Sonic's main problem for me is that he's only interested when he's interacting with more interesting characters, or hits an obstacle that he can't immediately surmount, but all other times he's a bore. Amy does best at comic relief, imo. I appreciate her direction, but purely from a comical standpoint. Amy has been a comic relief, fan-girl since she was created in Sonic CD, but she's not too overbearing. I don't see a reason to challenge her, but it certainly can be done. As for Nicole, I think her "conclusion" was still rather open-ended. I recall that Mina and Nicole patched things up, but that still left the rest of the Kingdom.

As for the current state of the reboot I'll try to be brief...
Sonic is a tragic bore, he shows up to fix problems and moves on. Sally has gone from field commander who only really needed her challenges between making right and wrong decisions to keep her interesting, imo, but noooo. She needs super-tacky, stupid energy ring blades Ihatethemsomuchhatehatehatehateuuuurrrrrrrraaaaaaaawwwwwwwrrrrrrr. Everyone else I'm going to mark off as "needs time" since I've seen so little of them.

Ugh, I hate walls of text, but if there's the tiniest chance that some of my opinions on this matter (I really do want to keep enjoying this series) will be heard, I'm all for it. Also, I appreciate that you're going out of your way to throw in your two cents, laviarray.
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby Specs64z » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:14 pm

laviarray wrote:
Specs64z wrote:I definitely agree that the characters feel more like set pieces than people (er, animals) with emotions and development, and that the cast needs to be smaller/less characters per story arc.


Yeah. Spoilers for my recommendations, that is one of the things I am going to recommend was shrinking the cast down. However, the character changes I would say might be a bit controversial.

It's not necessarily that they need to change to be more developed. Just that I wish I could see a little more of their personal thoughts and feelings. They lack what a comic book can do better than many other forms of media: insight to characters thoughts, desires, motivations, conflicts, and basically everything that makes a well developed charcter well developed (well, excpet a good backstory, bit that's another discussion entirely). Sometimes the witty dialogue in the comic is great, and facial expressions are sufficient to explain what a character feels. Either through thought or word bubbles, there are times I wish I had more insight as to who these characters really are on the inside rather than always floating on the surface.
laviarray wrote:
Specs64z wrote:I also think they need to focus more on Sonic (plz no wherehog). It's his comic, as he reminds us occasionally on the cover. Why does he feel like a backround character? A weak backround character at that?


SO TRUE. Sonic gets lost in the crowd so often in this series and really, this isn't his story anymore, if it ever was. It isnt about his goals, or about him trying to protect something. He is really just the muscle in the cast to Sally's lead.

For being the muscle he certainly struggles with small groups of enemies, and certainly can't handle the E-100 series (then mighty comes along and one shots it. The heck?!). Pre-reboot, he was gloriously OP and watching him dismantle entire armies at super speed (my favorite being during iron dominion, where he takes out basically the entire ninja clan in about 4 panels) and dismantle enemy guns faster than they could even see (or feel) right before fights was pretty dang cool. It also meant that any baddie that could actually stand up to Sonic was a serious threat that I could actually respect as a villain. He needs a power up.
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby Mobotropolis » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:38 pm

I actually really liked that bit.

It came out of nowhere and made absolutely no sense.

How did he get this? He certainly didn't have it when Geoffery shot him in the back a few issues ago. Or when Super Scourge was punching him in the face. Or when Mecha who was Eggman's so there really isn't much of an excuse there shot him all the way back in Home. Or when Eggman punched him in the face. Twice.

It seemed like a way in-canon to explain his Sega Plot Armor, I guess, but that wasn't really something that needed to be explained for reasons I stated before. Sonic is just so good at what he does that something as mundane as gunfire isn't going to stop him or even slow him down. That's wasting bullets.

Sonic was already physically superior to like 95% of the cast. He didn't need this.
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby DoNotDelete » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:00 am

Specs64z wrote:
laviarray wrote:
Specs64z wrote:I also think they need to focus more on Sonic (plz no wherehog). It's his comic, as he reminds us occasionally on the cover. Why does he feel like a backround character? A weak backround character at that?

SO TRUE. Sonic gets lost in the crowd so often in this series and really, this isn't his story anymore, if it ever was. It isnt about his goals, or about him trying to protect something. He is really just the muscle in the cast to Sally's lead.

For being the muscle he certainly struggles with small groups of enemies, and certainly can't handle the E-100 series (then mighty comes along and one shots it. The heck?!). Pre-reboot, he was gloriously OP and watching him dismantle entire armies at super speed (my favorite being during iron dominion, where he takes out basically the entire ninja clan in about 4 panels) and dismantle enemy guns faster than they could even see (or feel) right before fights was pretty dang cool. It also meant that any baddie that could actually stand up to Sonic was a serious threat that I could actually respect as a villain. He needs a power up.

I wouldn't say that Sonic is the muscle - yeah, maybe that's one of his things in Werehog form - but Sonic is about speed, not strength. Mighty's thing is strength. I recall Mighty using a tank as a club on one of the covers pre-reboot.

Maybe the Werehog situation has caused a loss of focus on what Sonic is meant to be about - his speed. I can see now that it's diluted/contaminated his character profile. It didn't bother me so much before but now I'm thinking maybe it is better to get rid of the Werehog component sooner rather than later.

I wasn't so bothered about the Werehog thing and Shattered World thing having been dragged out so long until recently - but now I'm starting to feel where people are coming from. It needs to be wrapped up and done away with inside of a year. Dragging it out for so long has not been good for the comic.
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby FancyFool » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:04 am

Specs64z wrote:I also think they need to focus more on Sonic (plz no wherehog).

DoNotDelete wrote:Maybe the Werehog situation has caused a loss of focus on what Sonic is meant to be about - his speed. I can see now that it's diluted/contaminated his character profile. It didn't bother me so much before but now I'm thinking maybe it is better to get rid of the Werehog component sooner rather than later.

Oh yes, let's NOT show the Werehog anymore in the adaptation of the one single game is ever appeared in and in it's last ever appearance in official Sonic media. In fact, we should TOTALLY get rid of the Werehog RIGHT NOW! I mean, it's done NOTHING good for Sonic. Well, except for showing how strong Sonic is as a character: how he can be stripped of his greatest strength, the thing he is famous for, and still triumph over obstacles by adapting to the strengths of this new form through quick learning and creativity. There's also how the Werehog demonstrates how free spirited Sonic is: how he can absorb a big fragment of a very powerful dark god and still retain his own sense of self without even realizing it. There's also a good amount of potential stuff that can be further explored about the Werehog that can be interesting. But who the heck cares about any of that!? The ONLY thing that matters to Sonic is how fast he can run and if it's below 9999 MPH then he SUCKS and therefore the Werehog SUCKS and NEEDS to be destroyed immediately! We shouldn't even wait for the Unleashed adaptation, the one game that Werehog ever appeared in and had a fundamental part of, to end at all! It's BEYOND redemption at this point so might as well give up on the Werehog now! Don't bother to try and have any use out of it! Sorry Werehog fans! The Werehog is just a bad idea and we think it best it just go away and never show up ever again :P
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby DoNotDelete » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:25 am

FancyFool wrote:Oh yes, let's NOT show the Werehog anymore in the adaptation of the one single game is ever appeared in and in it's last ever appearance in official Sonic media. In fact, we should TOTALLY get rid of the Werehog RIGHT NOW! I mean, it's done NOTHING good for Sonic. Well, except for showing how strong Sonic is as a character: how he can be stripped of his greatest strength, the thing he is famous for, and still triumph over obstacles by adapting to the strengths of this new form through quick learning and creativity. There's also how the Werehog demonstrates how free spirited Sonic is: how he can absorb a big fragment of a very powerful dark god and still retain his own sense of self without even realizing it. There's also a good amount of potential stuff that can be further explored about the Werehog that can be interesting. But who the heck cares about any of that!? The ONLY thing that matters to Sonic is how fast he can run and if it's below 9999 MPH then he SUCKS and therefore the Werehog SUCKS and NEEDS to be destroyed immediately! We shouldn't even wait for the Unleashed adaptation, the one game that Werehog ever appeared in and had a fundamental part of, to end at all! It's BEYOND redemption at this point so might as well give up on the Werehog now! Don't bother to try and have any use out of it! Sorry Werehog fans! The Werehog is just a bad idea and we think it best it just go away and never show up ever again :P

Nice passionate comment. But just a tad overblown and a little bit exaggerative/misrepresentative of an otherwise cool and calm discussion.

Responding politely: there is such a thing as over-representation. Why should the Werehog/Shattered World crisis be given so much pagetime when the Werehog is a feature unique to only one Sonic game? One I suspect a lot of Sonic fans who follow the comic have not even played (I haven't).

It's not ridiculous to question if a comic has taken something to the point of overrepresentation, or if a storyline has been too ambitious/extended beyond its entertainment value. You personally might have a vested interest in the Werehog (and that's cool, I'm not going to berate you for that), but I'm not getting that same vibe from everyone here and I've seen comments elsewhere expressing disinterest in the Werehog component.

You can present your interest in the current storyline without being inflammatory or berating people who don't share the same opinion. This is how discussions work.
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:58 am

Mobotropolis wrote:
I actually really liked that bit.

It came out of nowhere and made absolutely no sense.

How did he get this? He certainly didn't have it when Geoffery shot him in the back a few issues ago. Or when Super Scourge was punching him in the face. Or when Mecha who was Eggman's so there really isn't much of an excuse there shot him all the way back in Home. Or when Eggman punched him in the face. Twice.

It seemed like a way in-canon to explain his Sega Plot Armor, I guess, but that wasn't really something that needed to be explained for reasons I stated before. Sonic is just so good at what he does that something as mundane as gunfire isn't going to stop him or even slow him down. That's wasting bullets.

Sonic was already physically superior to like 95% of the cast. He didn't need this.


Sonic being "embodiment of chaos" doesn't mean he immortal (well, in theory), but more that impossible becomes possible around him. Probability isn't working as it should, he's "constant inconstancy" quoting Eggman.
Which doesn't change then fact that I don't really like it. It still implies that Sonic is immortal and that kills all the tension (yes we know he's immortal, but while reading we try to not think about that).
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Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby WiNTER BELLS » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:52 am

Mobotropolis wrote:It came out of nowhere and made absolutely no sense.

How did he get this?

In issue 210, Eggman stated that through the massive amounts of Chaos energy he's been exposed to, not to mention the by-product of Chaos Emeralds, rings, he's become the embodiment of Chaos, this is also the source of Sonic's durability and healing factor.
MetalSkulkBane wrote:Sonic being "embodiment of chaos" doesn't mean he immortal (well, in theory), but more that impossible becomes possible around him. Probability isn't working as it should, he's "constant inconstancy" quoting Eggman.
Which doesn't change then fact that I don't really like it. It still implies that Sonic is immortal and that kills all the tension (yes we know he's immortal, but while reading we try to not think about that).

I didn't really get that it implied that "Sonic is Immortal", more that "Sonic is a walking time bomb", the more you interact with him, the more likely something's going to blow up in your face. Why deal with that when you can take Sonic apart much more easily, and safely, by destroying those around him? To quote Eggman after blowing up Antoine, "After ten-plus years, I'm not pushing my luck".
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