Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Forum devoted to Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Universe and the entire Sonic line by Archie Comics.

Do you agree with this?

Yes
5
22%
Sorta
3
13%
Meh
7
30%
No Way!
6
26%
This guy is a stinky poo face!
2
9%
 
Total votes : 23

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby WiNTER BELLS » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:33 am

Mobotropolis wrote:No. No. I get that.

It's that this even had to be a thing at all that rubbed me the wrong way. Instead of The Freedom Fighter's victories being attributed to their incredible talent, skill, teamwork, or planning it is being attributed to what is essentially magic. It was my hope that the Chaos Factor actually was the ramblings of an insane Eggman and/or that he was proven wrong about his assessment and came to value Sonic's friends as a threat in their own right. The story seemed to run with the Chaos Factor actually being a thing, though, and that just makes me wonder why he bothers.

Except, you know, out of spite.

It also makes me wonder why none of the other characters who have been exposed to high levels of Chaos Energy like Knuckles who was bathed in it as a baby, Shadow who has so much it needs to be constantly surpressed, or Mammoth Mongul who had a freaken Chaos Emerald in his chest did not seem to be as blessed as Sonic when it came to Chaos Energy.

I think you may be looking at it from too negative of a perspective. I'm fairly certain that we can say a vast majority of Sonic's victories were a testament to their abilities. While Chaos only played a critical role in situations that would otherwise be impossible. As for why Sonic has this and the others you mentioned seemingly do not... I don't know... but if I had to wager a guess it has to do with the excess of Rings that Sonic has collected.
On a side note, Eggman is quite the sore looser... while I'd attribute some of Eggman's loses to Chaos, I still think a majority is due to his opponent's abilities/his own shortsightedness.
Mobotropolis wrote:So ... was Larry an embodiment of Chaos because he had the exact same power?

If this is a joke I apologize in advance for the misunderstanding, but just in-case it's not. The theory behind Chaos and luck are, on the surface, very similar, but actually quite different. Luck has no underlying cause or reason, while Chaos is saturated in cause and effect. The butterfly effect is an example of Chaos.

Let's put Sonic and Larry Lynx in a room and have them roll a die.

Larry rolls a die, gets a 1.
Larry rolls again, gets another 1, and his chair breaks.

Sonic rolls a die, a butterfly's wing beats from 3 miles away travels in Sonic's direction, goes in through the window and slightly alters Sonic's die before it hits the table, gets a 3.
Sonic rolls again, the die hits a small dent in the table where Antione stuck his knife last Tues. while eating dinner, the dice gets stuck on one of it's corners. Sonic's chair, part of a different furniture set than the table, due to Larry breaking the last chair, that was exposed to a mobian termite collection during shipping when the truck hit a bump and knocked the termite collection onto the chair, breaks due to weak support.

ToaArcan wrote:I mean seriously, who thought Titan Tails was a good idea?

BURN IT! BURN IT TO THE GROUND! I don't remember ever being so infuriated with any form of writing as I was during this moment.
User avatar
WiNTER BELLS
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:18 pm

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby Mobotropolis » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:29 pm

If this is a joke I apologize in advance for the misunderstanding, but just in-case it's not.

I was joking about the nature of their powers and how they are used to justify things happening in the story.

From a writing perspective they both serve the same purpose. Only Sonic's is played straight and Larry's for laughs.
Mobotropolis
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:52 pm

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:30 pm

ToaArcan wrote:On the topic of the Constant Chaos thing, and how it was supposed to make Sonic always come through, I wonder how that gets tied in with his complete failure to catch Mecha Sally?


Two things:

1) They did catch Mecha Sally.

2) For what that was worth, as reality was rewritten at that exact moment, so I think whatever Chaos energies did that trumped Sonic's.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
User avatar
LBD_Nytetrayn
BumbleElite
 
Posts: 10987
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:19 pm
Location: Balloon Fight Arena

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby MetaL Overlord » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:28 am

Why is this even discussed? I always thought it was pretty clear , that Eggman while going Bonkers broke the Fourth Wall and his Chaos Factor Theory was his rationalizing that Sonic and his Friends have got massive Plotarmor or the Sega Mandates backing them up.
User avatar
MetaL Overlord
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:03 am
Location: Final Egg

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby ToaArcan » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:37 pm

LBD_Nytetrayn wrote:

1) They did catch Mecha Sally.


--LBD "Nytetrayn"


Technically, they merely cornered her. She was still up and fighting, and about to kill Sonic with the brain-laser. If Sonic had an always-wins-reality-warping-power, he would've actually defeated her and captured her much sooner.
User avatar
ToaArcan
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:13 pm
Location: Right behind you

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby akessel92 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:44 pm

ToaArcan wrote:
LBD_Nytetrayn wrote:

1) They did catch Mecha Sally.


--LBD "Nytetrayn"


Technically, they merely cornered her. She was still up and fighting, and about to kill Sonic with the brain-laser. If Sonic had an always-wins-reality-warping-power, he would've actually defeated her and captured her much sooner.

And then silver zapped and put her out of commission before the reality warping craziness ensued. And besides the overall goal of mecha Sally arc was to put the characters in the biggest possible challenge they could overcome. However, again stuff happened and here we are now. But back on the topic at hand.

One thing that the comics can improve on. Is be consistent and release trades and reprints when they advertised.
akessel92
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1639
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:52 am
Location: in my home made of trash gets drafty in the winter

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby ToaArcan » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:14 am

akessel92 wrote:And then silver zapped and put her out of commission before the reality warping craziness ensued. And besides the overall goal of mecha Sally arc was to put the characters in the biggest possible challenge they could overcome. However, again stuff happened and here we are now. But back on the topic at hand.


Yes, they challenged the characters by removing all the ones that could actually grow from the experience, leaving three boring leads coated in indestructible SEGA-brand plot armour.

Since the topic is improving the comic, allow me to suggest something:

Spoiler: show
You want to write a story where the FF are challenged to the extreme and overcome it? Awesome.

Step 1: Make it about the Freedom Fighters, not the three least dynamic members.

Step 2: Take away everything else. Their home. Their weapons. Their accomplishments. Their families. Take it all, put them back where they were at the very beginning.

Step 3: Have it carry some weight. While they need to have some victories early on so it doesn't look too bleak, but make them minor, and intersperse the losses with the successes, rather than hitting them with a constant stream of failures that then necessitate a constant string of victories.

Step 4: Really break up the status quo, rather than just shake it a bit. Here's an example:

In 225, all of the Freedom Fighters make it onto the Death Egg. The party dwindles, as each of them break off to fight a "boss", like Snively, or Lien-Da, Metal Sonic, etc, leaving only Sonic and Sally to face Eggman and his World Roboticizer. Sonic does the fighting, while Sally tries to turn off the machine. However, while it's powering down, Eggman manages to fire it.

As a result, the World Roboticizer fires, and consumes half of Mobius, that being the half that the protagonists and most of their regular allies live in. And since this is a new Roboticizer, the "makes existing machinery explode" thing no longer applies. This is dark enough, we don't need to blow up Jules.

So now, the Freedom Fighters are battered and bruised, and they have nowhere to really run.
User avatar
ToaArcan
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:13 pm
Location: Right behind you

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:06 am

ToaArcan wrote:
LBD_Nytetrayn wrote:

1) They did catch Mecha Sally.


--LBD "Nytetrayn"


Technically, they merely cornered her. She was still up and fighting, and about to kill Sonic with the brain-laser. If Sonic had an always-wins-reality-warping-power, he would've actually defeated her and captured her much sooner.


"Always win" doesn't mean "always win now." I think Sonic #175 proved that.

akessel92 wrote:And then silver zapped and put her out of commission before the reality warping craziness ensued. And besides the overall goal of mecha Sally arc was to put the characters in the biggest possible challenge they could overcome. However, again stuff happened and here we are now. But back on the topic at hand.

One thing that the comics can improve on. Is be consistent and release trades and reprints when they advertised.


And this.

ToaArcan wrote:
akessel92 wrote:And then silver zapped and put her out of commission before the reality warping craziness ensued. And besides the overall goal of mecha Sally arc was to put the characters in the biggest possible challenge they could overcome. However, again stuff happened and here we are now. But back on the topic at hand.


Yes, they challenged the characters by removing all the ones that could actually grow from the experience, leaving three boring leads coated in indestructible SEGA-brand plot armour.

Since the topic is improving the comic, allow me to suggest something:

You want to write a story where the FF are challenged to the extreme and overcome it? Awesome.

Spoiler: show
Step 1: Make it about the Freedom Fighters, not the three least dynamic members.

Step 2: Take away everything else. Their home. Their weapons. Their accomplishments. Their families. Take it all, put them back where they were at the very beginning.

Step 3: Have it carry some weight. While they need to have some victories early on so it doesn't look too bleak, but make them minor, and intersperse the losses with the successes, rather than hitting them with a constant stream of failures that then necessitate a constant string of victories.

Step 4: Really break up the status quo, rather than just shake it a bit. Here's an example:

In 225, all of the Freedom Fighters make it onto the Death Egg. The party dwindles, as each of them break off to fight a "boss", like Snively, or Lien-Da, Metal Sonic, etc, leaving only Sonic and Sally to face Eggman and his World Roboticizer. Sonic does the fighting, while Sally tries to turn off the machine. However, while it's powering down, Eggman manages to fire it.

As a result, the World Roboticizer fires, and consumes half of Mobius, that being the half that the protagonists and most of their regular allies live in. And since this is a new Roboticizer, the "makes existing machinery explode" thing no longer applies. This is dark enough, we don't need to blow up Jules.

So now, the Freedom Fighters are battered and bruised, and they have nowhere to really run.


1) That should be spoilered. (Handled)

2) You make it sound as though there's only one way to execute such a scenario.

3) Given all the interference at the time, I wouldn't be 100% certain that your way would work out as planned, either, and was equally likely to be cut off at the knees.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
User avatar
LBD_Nytetrayn
BumbleElite
 
Posts: 10987
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:19 pm
Location: Balloon Fight Arena

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby ToaArcan » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:55 pm

LBD_Nytetrayn wrote:

2) You make it sound as though there's only one way to execute such a scenario.

3) Given all the interference at the time, I wouldn't be 100% certain that your way would work out as planned, either, and was equally likely to be cut off at the knees.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"


2) That wasn't my intention, it was just an example.

3) True.
User avatar
ToaArcan
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:13 pm
Location: Right behind you

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby NxtWaltDisney » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:24 pm

I actually like the comic the way it is now. I trust Ian knows what he's doing, and look forward to amazing things in the comic's future.
User avatar
NxtWaltDisney
BumbleClan
 
Posts: 2915
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 5:21 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby laviarray » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:56 am

Part 2

Part 1 mainly went into the characters, because that’s what I look for in storytelling, following a character in the ups and down of their journey and getting to learn more about them. Now I’m not going into that again because, for the most part, people understood my points. However, without character writing, I don’t see the point of why this comic exist, as this is an adaptation for Sonic explicitly. Now I would be willing to overlook the lack character writing if the series gave me anything else to enjoy. However, at the end of the day, it doesn’t.

Originally, this part 2 was going to be going over the general story issues and contradictions. However, after looking at my notes for the series, all of the problems come from the fact that the series never gains a point for the story. While the comic does have events happen, they don’t seem to happen except for having something happen for the issue. I know a lot of people like this because it is a comic about Sonic, but this should be able to offer something besides having Sonic in an overlong cameo. So for this post, I want to talk about how I came to this conclusion and why I view this series as pointless.

Premise:

Story-wise, I don’t understand what the comic is trying to do. There are several levels of the narrative, with the premise, story arcs, and episodic stories, however, they don’t connect with each other or really work on their own. The main premise of Eggman running an Egg Empire with living soldiers has problems, but the main problem is how unused and restrictive the idea is. In the current arc, both the Freedom Fighters and the Egg Empire are trying to rush to collect the Chaos Emeralds, with both parties against each other. However, there isn’t anything to their competition. The characters don’t have any type of rivalry between each other, no major themes or ideas invoked (besides one, but I’ll get to that), and nothing to help establish the threat of the Eggman Empire besides random One on One robots, which also can be taken down with relative ease. And all of this is weird considering how the comic sets up Eggman as the only major threat.

Since this arc is about the emerald search and the world has been written to suggest it is Eggman versus the rest of the world, the comic locks Eggman as the only source of conflict to the story. Now having one long running villain comes with a load of problems, but the main one I want to focus on is how restrictive it is. Since Eggman is the main source of conflict, this means that only a certain amount of ideas or problems can be touched on. Granted there is much a writer can do with a mad scientist overlord, but the return on that can only go so far when he shows up over and over and over again. The comics try to water this down by having Egg Bosses, but they don’t stand out that well on the own and they are still agents of Eggman. What is worst is that the games don’t even support this as almost every game since Adventure has introduced another villain outside of Eggman. And to add to the problems Eggman hasn’t even interacted with Sonic since the Genesis wave outside of the crossover, so their dynamic that has been in almost every other property, including Boom, isn’t here.

So why have Eggman in this position? I want to say to make him a powerful threat, he never does anything to warrant him having a massive empire and that couldn’t be done as a smaller villain like in almost every other property. Maybe this is because Flynn has an idea for him that hasn’t happened yet, but I highly doubt it.

Arc Structure:

Flynn has stated that he likes to have long-term payoffs in fiction, which he seems to try to implement here, however his execution is a bit lacking. The comic tries to use the Shattered world plot as a story arc. However, it’s not really an arc. We have seen some people reacting to it afterward, like the underwater kingdom or Breezie, as well as the introduction of the Gaia monsters, but nothing with the Gaia monsters has been majorly developed, or any conflicts directly connected to this problem. And I would be fine with this if it did anything with substantial with this format. Take Steven Universe, which also is dealing with preventing their planet from being split apart. However, the point of that conflict was to be a framing device for a character’s redemption arc. In Archie, there isn’t a particular focus for anything. The argument could be made that this arc is about world building, but outside Waves of Change, there haven‘t been any locations explored past showing they exist.  So if the comic isn’t building on any ideas or conflicts, what is the point of this arc? To introduce stuff.

The comic seems to suffer what I like to call “Russel T Davies” Syndrome when it comes to constructing story arcs. Because the arc is made of several randomly dropped concepts to set up for other events later, like Dr. Ellidy, The underwater characters, Tundra, Lupe, etc. However, they don’t build off of or lead into anything when it comes to the main plot or conflict. Yes, Tundra does have a connection to a lead character, but why have him in now instead of developing the arc directly? Yes, Lupe is a fan favorite, but she could have been introduced anytime. I think the writers do this because they want to keep the audience in the dark about how they are going to participate in the finale or what they are going to do, but that works when there is a bit of mystery or wonder about them. Most of them had their whole role laid out with their stories and they didn’t connect to the main conflict in any major way. However, to add insult to injury, the comic will have issues made only to introduce these characters.

Episodic:
The individual stories mainly seem to exist to set up events for the overarching storyline, usually not having their own 3 act story. While the major stories like Waves of Change or the Werehog arc try to stand on their own. Many others seem to exist to only set up events for later without telling its own story. Tundra’s reveal is probably the biggest offender, as it should have some type of story or character arc around it, but no. The conflict is only around the captured Eskimos and Sonic and Rotor save them with ease without any development or story arc around Tundra’s reveal or Rotor’s reaction. The get captured, Rotor finds his Dad, he sulks, Sonic cheers him up, Werehogs out, breaks out, days over.

Now the literary problem with this is straightforward, a story regardless of length should be able to tell its own 3 act narrative. However, this problem is an issue with the production too. Not only do these comics cost $3-4 bucks each, they only come out on a monthly basis. Why should anyone spend that kind of money on comics that don’t put in the basic effort of telling a compelling story on a regular basis?

“Flynn has a plan!”:

Now maybe the comic has a huge payoff in mind for all of these events. Maybe all of them connect to this genius ending my mind can’t begin to comprehend. I have a hard time giving the comic that faith because of the Werehog arc. Now I’m one the few people that is ok with Sonic having those abilities and not having them tied to the chaos emerald is a plus in my book. However, the entire arc of the him dealing with it is a mess. The setup for it is repetitive and contradictory to the end result, the payoff 10 issues later is confusing, makes Sonic a bad guy for no other reason besides conflict, and then the resolution for it is so easy it happens off screen in one day. Then the finale ends on Sonic apologizing for not telling them sooner, even though they had no way to deal with him and if he wasn’t there, they all probably would have lost more emeralds. So, yeah the one arc without any executive meddling, fails at almost every level.

So if the story is this much of a mess, does it compensate in any other elements. Well, no. But why?

Continued in part 3.

Think I have a point or am I completely wrong?

Feel free to comment below.
laviarray
BumbleNewbie
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:18 pm

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby DudestofGuys » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:51 pm

You've got seven days before the forum closes. If you actually want to keep talking, you need to pick up the pace.
DudestofGuys
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:27 am

Re: Let's Improve the comic! part 1

Postby laviarray » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:01 pm

DudestofGuys wrote:You've got seven days before the forum closes. If you actually want to keep talking, you need to pick up the pace.


Well part 3 will be out today.

I thought it closed in 2 weeks?
laviarray
BumbleNewbie
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:18 pm

Previous

Return to This Side of Mobius



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests