Lost Hedgehog Tales

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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby The KKM » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:51 pm

DudestofGuys wrote:
The KKM wrote:That's their business to do (which they've been cleaning up for a decade), the point is more that the games are no longer as story-free as 1991. Hard rules ARE needed.


Nah. Some of StC's best stuff would make no sense in a completely by-the-rules Sega Sonic setting.

Just go by what's there and try not to be too contradictory. That's good enough.


StC's best stuff made sense with the SEGA Sonic setting of the time. Except for Adventure, which hey, proves the point that SEGA'd need to start taking some control so the comic would actually represent the product it was supposed to represent.

The way you're all putting this makes it feel like SEGA has some sort of problem with Ian personally, or how sad it is that SEGA isn't realising Ian's writing personally, when that misses the point entirely. They just put some hard rules on how to depict their property, and that's that. They don't care whom the actual writer is, nor is it their job to do so because it's Archie's- for all they know Archie could be getting a new writer every month. Ian's not even an editor, it's why with LHT he keeps referring over and over how these were not plans approved by SEGA, they often weren't by Archie at all. They're just the ideas he individually had, and it makes no sense to ask the licensor to bend to that.
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby Mobotropolis » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:12 pm

Just because its an action series doesn't mean it couldn't work or doesn't belong

What works for Marvel may not necessarily work for Archie. The audience and creative environment are quite different. Not only that, but the Marvel/DC Universe have about 20 times the monthly page space that Sonic has across its two books. This is a book that's already struggling to find page-space to tell certain stories and develop certain concepts. The writers have to pick their battles. For the longest time Bunnie went without any development because of this.

As I said a few posts ago I feel like Bunnie often plays second banana to Sally who is the more popular Archie-girl, Amy who is the most popular SegaSonic girl, and increasingly Nicole who manages to utilize many of Bunnie's core concepts better and seems more popular with the fanbase because of it. Acknowledging that, I would not want to write her into a scenario where she would appear even less and in less important roles until the baby is born. If we're going to get panel-time for Bunnie I'd rather it be spent on her doing great things on the field over good things at home.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't work. If Ian absolutely wanted to do this for some baffling reason then he can pull it off. I'm saying that as a fan of the character this is not how I want her development to go or her panel-time to be used. There are many ways they can develop Bunnie's character while still keeping her active and relevant to the book.

advances time

Friendly reminder that it has not even been a month in-universe time since the reboot started two years ago real-time. We did a significant time skip exactly once over the book's run -- and even that was retconned to an even shorter time because too much time had passed during the timeskip. Incidentally, two of the three pre-reboot infants were conveniently born during this Time Skip.

In my head I'm thinking that Bunnie would be out of the Freedom Fighters for an additional 2-3 years on top of the year she was already gone after running away. So almost 50 issues/two milestones in the worst case scenario.

and opens up more story line possibilities.

Meh. I felt that Bunnie and Antoine getting married limited their story possibilities somewhat because the book has a tendency to stick couples together -- less so post-reboot but we'll see if that lasts.

As much as I welcome change I also acknowledge that with each permanent decision made a couple of doors close. There will be stories that you'll never be able to tell with the characters involved once you go past that point. So you have to thread kind of carefully in that regard.
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby linebyline » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:14 pm

Ian Flynn wrote:
Meliden wrote:No, Squeaky's quite right. The comics did do their own thing for a long time, but SEGA's since brought them into line so they do properly act as promotion for the games (and the games themselves don't promote jack all about the comic, aside from Mega Collection Plus from 2004). The extra characters and settings are basically window dressing for the most part, ones which SEGA could ask to be removed at any time. Not that I think they will, mind.

Right. The comics exist to promote the games. And when there are long periods between games, the comics exist to keep the brand fresh and relevant - as much as it can, anyway. My job is to make you enjoy reading a commercial, thankfully with a fair degree of creative freedom.

I don't want to derail the thread here, so I'll try to be brief.

I still don't see it. Sure, promoting the brand (even if not necessarily specific games) is probably why Sega licenses Sonic to Archie, but its not the reason the comic exists. Sure, Sega now maintains tight control over many aspects of how the comic handles the brand, but that doesn't make it a commercial--just a Sonic product as opposed to something else with Sonic pasted on. Ultimately, while there may be plenty of overlap, "licensed product" and "advertisement" are two different categories.

One final thought: If Archie were making commercials, they should be getting paid, like any other ad agency, not paying Sega for the privilege. But they're not, and it's because they're not making a commercial. They're making a comic, and paying money (and accepting Sega's other conditions) in exchange for permission to make it a comic about Sonic.

Mobotropolis wrote:Friendly reminder that it has not even been a month in-universe time since the reboot started two years ago real-time. We did a significant time skip exactly once over the book's run -- and even that was retconned to an even shorter time because too much time had passed during the timeskip. Incidentally, two of the three pre-reboot infants were conveniently born during this Time Skip.

There was also a two-month timeskip in the #90's, during which Knothole was built into a full-fledged city and the Overlanders started settling into Robotropolis. I'm not sure how significant that is, though. It's a lot of time for a comic that even at the time was fairly hand-wavy about the passage of time (and tended not to age the characters appreciably). On the other hand, the Knuckles series managed to ignore it entirely.
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby Mordum » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:47 pm

linebyline wrote:I still don't see it. Sure, promoting the brand (even if not necessarily specific games) is probably why Sega licenses Sonic to Archie, but its not the reason the comic exists. Sure, Sega now maintains tight control over many aspects of how the comic handles the brand, but that doesn't make it a commercial--just a Sonic product as opposed to something else with Sonic pasted on. Ultimately, while there may be plenty of overlap, "licensed product" and "advertisement" are two different categories.

One final thought: If Archie were making commercials, they should be getting paid, like any other ad agency, not paying Sega for the privilege. But they're not, and it's because they're not making a commercial. They're making a comic, and paying money (and accepting Sega's other conditions) in exchange for permission to make it a comic about Sonic.


I'm pretty sure if the person creating the product cops to it existing for the sake of advertising a different product, it is probably considered an advertisement for said different product.

Most 80's cartoons are commercials. Japanese companies consider shonen anime commercials for the manga and other merchandise. Narrative products as ads for toys or merchandise, essentially glorified commercials, are not even vaguely new and the Sonic comic is not even remotely unique in this. The only way it's not an ad is if you're being needlessly obtuse about the definition of a commercial.

Which, hey, you are!
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby GentlemanX » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:14 pm

The comics are an advertisement for Sega, they are a product for Archie; it's just a matter of perspective.
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby Mobotropolis » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:34 pm

I'm curious as to what you think this actually is if not an advertisement.

I'm not sure how significant that is, though

Assuming that mobians and humans carry for about the same amount of time a baby will take about 8-9 months.

Time moved a lot faster in the pre-Ian days. These days they seem to be more ambiguous about the passage of time -- probably because they don't want to imply that the SegaSonic characters are getting older. It also feels like time is moving a lot slower since archs are getting longer. Even pre-reboot with the Mecha Sally arch all of that stuff happened in just a matter of days despite taking over a year of real-world time.

Another Time Skip could happen, but it would be hard to justify in that particular scenario since Bunnie wasn't the only one suffering. There was also the Sally thing. And the Nagus thing. And the Tails Doll thing. And the Nicole in exile thing. And whatever was happening with the Chaotix and the echindas. I couldn't see that happening until at least Sally was restored so that would mean Bunnie'll still be on the shelf for a while.
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby DudestofGuys » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:55 am

The KKM wrote:StC's best stuff made sense with the SEGA Sonic setting of the time. Except for Adventure, which hey, proves the point that SEGA'd need to start taking some control so the comic would actually represent the product it was supposed to represent.

Really? I'm pretty sure its best material was absolute nonsense (talking trees and alternate dimensions with wannabe X-Men) or contradictory to Sega canon (Knuckles isn't the last of his kind, Charmy is royalty because "huh huh, bees have queens", etc). A lot of it wouldn't happen if the writers were EXTREMELY concerned with the exact direction Sega wanted to go instead of just trying not to step on anyone's toes.

The way you're all putting this makes it feel like SEGA has some sort of problem with Ian personally, or how sad it is that SEGA isn't realising Ian's writing personally, when that misses the point entirely. They just put some hard rules on how to depict their property, and that's that. They don't care whom the actual writer is, nor is it their job to do so because it's Archie's- for all they know Archie could be getting a new writer every month. Ian's not even an editor, it's why with LHT he keeps referring over and over how these were not plans approved by SEGA, they often weren't by Archie at all. They're just the ideas he individually had, and it makes no sense to ask the licensor to bend to that.

Whew, you're projecting pretty hard there.

I have no delusions of Ian's plans being anything near concrete or Sega not having the final say-so. I'm saying trying to nail down " hard rules" stifles creativity. There's nothing wrong with trying to understand the series' internal logic, but trying too hard to follow the rules to the letter means not going on tangents and shaking things up. It means no magic horses goading Tails into assassinating John F. Robotnik, and that's a real shame.
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby Meliden » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:27 am

I think having no rules being able to lead to that is exactly why there are hard rules; they have an image they want for their franchise, and having the rules there is safer than not having rules and then it going out of control (See: Pretty much everything not the games prior to Sonic X).
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby The KKM » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:00 pm

DudestofGuys wrote:
The KKM wrote:StC's best stuff made sense with the SEGA Sonic setting of the time. Except for Adventure, which hey, proves the point that SEGA'd need to start taking some control so the comic would actually represent the product it was supposed to represent.

Really? I'm pretty sure its best material was absolute nonsense (talking trees and alternate dimensions with wannabe X-Men) or contradictory to Sega canon (Knuckles isn't the last of his kind, Charmy is royalty because "huh huh, bees have queens", etc). A lot of it wouldn't happen if the writers were EXTREMELY concerned with the exact direction Sega wanted to go instead of just trying not to step on anyone's toes.

The way you're all putting this makes it feel like SEGA has some sort of problem with Ian personally, or how sad it is that SEGA isn't realising Ian's writing personally, when that misses the point entirely. They just put some hard rules on how to depict their property, and that's that. They don't care whom the actual writer is, nor is it their job to do so because it's Archie's- for all they know Archie could be getting a new writer every month. Ian's not even an editor, it's why with LHT he keeps referring over and over how these were not plans approved by SEGA, they often weren't by Archie at all. They're just the ideas he individually had, and it makes no sense to ask the licensor to bend to that.

Whew, you're projecting pretty hard there.

I have no delusions of Ian's plans being anything near concrete or Sega not having the final say-so. I'm saying trying to nail down " hard rules" stifles creativity. There's nothing wrong with trying to understand the series' internal logic, but trying too hard to follow the rules to the letter means not going on tangents and shaking things up. It means no magic horses goading Tails into assassinating John F. Robotnik, and that's a real shame.


None of the absolute nonsense contradicts the setting of the time- it's nonsense, sure, but it didn't alter the stories of any of the individual characters or their inter-personal relations. There was no Princess Sally to order Sonic around, Tekno and Shrotfuse generally kept themselves aside instead of stealing the spotlight, etc. Knuckles had one other echidna appear- in a story where the whole point was to further the fact that he's the last of his kind regardless, and as we'd later know, future plans involved, as the setting asked for, all the Echidnas gone. The setting asked for Kintobor becoming Robotnik via chaos + egg, Mobius known as a natural paradise in the galaxy that people ignore, brown Sonic the Hedgehog, etc. Until, as I mentioned, late era-Saturn/Adventure, they were just fine- and then, surprise, it starts becoming a problem because the games start having more plot- at which point, rules become needed because otherwise you'd end up in 2003 still having Knuckles with a metal necklace and grrl-power Amy.

It's really not hard to get.

The rules aren't as hard as people paint them, as we've been shown time and time again. Don't alter the game characters, pretty much. I mean, despite running completely contrary to his games' self Sonic's still allowed to be a @#$% paramilitary soldier in the Freedom Fighters training for war, and you come here and complain SEGA's stifling the comic? Unleashed's been gutted of it's emotional plot points, and you're saying we haven't been allowed to go on tangents and shake things up? Come on.

EDIT: I mean, come on. It's 2015, not 1995. Were StC still alive and being as divergent as it was back then, you can be sure I'd be complaining too, don't worry. The series has a plot and identity now- I see no argument why asking its licensees to follow suite is a problem, especially when SEGA's being benevolent as all heck already with it. "No don't remove any character, just don't make them family of the game characters. Here, you can even use these outdated cartoon shows as fodder? You want to keep irrelevant 20-year-old characters in the spotlight? Sure! They're not characters we use at all as the faces of the franchise, but go ahead." But ask for a licensed issue for larger-level merchandising, oh no, chaos, panic.
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby Astrobot7000 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:26 pm

There's a happy medium between havinga list of "THOU SHALL NOT" rules and having total anarchist creative freedom. The pendulum has swung both ways at different points of the comic's history. I don't think we're at the point where the optimum balance has been reached, but it's better than having too much of an extreme pointing one way or the other.
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby linebyline » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:18 pm

Mobotropolis wrote:I'm curious as to what you think this actually is if not an advertisement.

I'm pretty sure it's a comic book.

Look, I've read comic books whose entire point was to sell something. The Sonic comics, with a few rare exceptions, are nothing like them.

The KKM wrote:EDIT: I mean, come on. It's 2015, not 1995. Were StC still alive and being as divergent as it was back then, you can be sure I'd be complaining too, don't worry. The series has a plot and identity now- I see no argument why asking its licensees to follow suite is a problem, especially when SEGA's being benevolent as all heck already with it. "No don't remove any character, just don't make them family of the game characters. Here, you can even use these outdated cartoon shows as fodder? You want to keep irrelevant 20-year-old characters in the spotlight? Sure! They're not characters we use at all as the faces of the franchise, but go ahead." But ask for a licensed issue for larger-level merchandising, oh no, chaos, panic.

Agreed, basically. Sega has every right to require licensees to keep their versions of Sonic in line with Sega's own vision. It was one thing back in the day, when the games didn't have much story depth and different licensees doing their own things was the direction of the brand. And that's still part of the brand's history, so there's no point in getting rid of it--if it can be made to fit in with what Sonic is now. I think Ian's done a pretty good job of that.

I'd argue that some of the cross-promotional comics weren't very good because the product-shilling was too up-front (those "rare exceptions" I was talking about) and I'd even say that some of the known "Sega Mandates" seem a bit ill-conceived to me, but on the whole, Sega's been pretty cool.
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby Lord Seth » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:42 am

Cool to see this is finally up. Looking forward to the rest.
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby The Swordsman » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:24 pm

Mobotropolis wrote:I'm curious as to what you think this actually is if not an advertisement.

I'm not sure how significant that is, though

Assuming that mobians and humans carry for about the same amount of time a baby will take about 8-9 months.

Time moved a lot faster in the pre-Ian days. These days they seem to be more ambiguous about the passage of time -- probably because they don't want to imply that the SegaSonic characters are getting older. It also feels like time is moving a lot slower since archs are getting longer. Even pre-reboot with the Mecha Sally arch all of that stuff happened in just a matter of days despite taking over a year of real-world time.

The only reason I had time moving forward was a plus because of SEGA not wanting the SEGA!Sonic characters getting older. Wasn't Sonic 17 in old reality?
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby Mobotropolis » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:04 pm

In-canon during Birthday Bash they were vague about his exact age, but acknowledged that he was older.

I figured that was intentional.
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Re: Lost Hedgehog Tales

Postby DudestofGuys » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:42 pm

linebyline wrote:Look, I've read comic books whose entire point was to sell something. The Sonic comics, with a few rare exceptions, are nothing like them.


I'm sorry to hear you've never had the pleasure of reading Rom: SpaceKnight.
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