Will the other characters ever be playable again?

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Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Yes
18
69%
No
8
31%
 
Total votes : 26

Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby Village » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:28 pm

Azul wrote:1) Mistakes happen, although this one is just "WHAAAAT."
2) Chaos Control is manipulation of space and time. Nothing more, nothing less. Using the Emeralds' power to amplify one's abilities is something else entirely different. These abilities you say Shadow can use without the Emeralds, what are they? Do you mean things Chaos Spear? Because those still rely on his connection to the Emeralds. He doesn't need to have one on hand but he can still draw on their power. And you're contradicting yourself. Sonic's abilities without the Emeralds are basically his move set. Sonic doesn't have the same connection the Emeralds as Shadow. Also, Thunder Arrow was just a gimmick move. The only time it's had a connection to the Emeralds was during the comics before the reboot.
3) I don't see what's so hard accepting Shadow, who's always been shown to travel at speeds rivaling Sonic's, is able to use the super boost too. Saying he isn't is saying he's slower than Blaze.
4) Remember that one time only 5 characters were able to tap into the power of the Emeralds? So far, no one character aside from Sonic,Chaos, Shadow, Gemrel and Silver has been shown or even hinted at being able to use the Emeralds to increase their own power. And Sonic is no underdog. He wins every time. He is the very opposite of an underdog. The Super Forms aid in fighting things that are too powerful for him in his normal form. I don't understand how you think a power up is uncharacteristic, espicially when it's been around for over 20 years.


2)I'm pretty sure other characters can use the chaos emeralds to just power, i'm also pretty a pretty sure in a bunch of other media, chaos emeralds time space powered batteres. Like thats the end of sonic heroes,. Also you mention but... but , and this is the only good thing sonic boom rise of lyric was ever for. And the cartoon. Chaos emeralds don't exist there ( yet anyway ) he can just do it, he can just super good. with out them. And I would like it to function like that normally.

3) I don't think thats it, I think its a game play convention. I think the only reason he was able to do that is that they needed the boss fight to work. Shadow is my favorite sonic character, I like the idea that sonic in some regards is better than him at stuff.

4) Eh, i mean he wins everytime the same way everyone else wins everytime. Its kids cartoon sure, but the appeal of sonic for me, was him overcoming odds, like fighting a robot in pools of lava and stuff. Things like, that, I think sonic boom sonic is way more of an underdog in that sense because the magical get out of dodge emeralds don't exist. He just has to fight, and some times he looses. Then he wins, a lot of the time its inconclusive. Sonic being an everyman is way more appealing than this weird idea that sonic has to be goku. I don't like that. I like him having to try and rely on friends , needing help being an everyman. Thats the good sonic, this super saiyain, i'm not fond of. And I think a great of everything would be improved if chaos emeralds were just relied less or just didn't exist. I don't offered anything interesting thematically, besides shadow. and even the bonus levels they reside in aren't good. Like super sonic, never really felt sonic... ey to me. Yeah its been around a while, I still don't like it.
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby Azul » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:31 pm

Village wrote:
Azul wrote:2)I'm pretty sure other characters can use the chaos emeralds to just power, i'm also pretty a pretty sure in a bunch of other media, chaos emeralds time space powered batteres. Like thats the end of sonic heroes,. Also you mention but... but , and this is the only good thing sonic boom rise of lyric was ever for. And the cartoon. Chaos emeralds don't exist there ( yet anyway ) he can just do it, he can just super good. with out them. And I would like it to function like that normally.

3) I don't think thats it, I think its a game play convention. I think the only reason he was able to do that is that they needed the boss fight to work. Shadow is my favorite sonic character, I like the idea that sonic in some regards is better than him at stuff.

4) Eh, i mean he wins everytime the same way everyone else wins everytime. Its kids cartoon sure, but the appeal of sonic for me, was him overcoming odds, like fighting a robot in pools of lava and stuff. Things like, that, I think sonic boom sonic is way more of an underdog in that sense because the magical get out of dodge emeralds don't exist. He just has to fight, and some times he looses. Then he wins, a lot of the time its inconclusive. Sonic being an everyman is way more appealing than this weird idea that sonic has to be goku. I don't like that. I like him having to try and rely on friends , needing help being an everyman. Thats the good sonic, this super saiyain, i'm not fond of. And I think a great of everything would be improved if chaos emeralds were just relied less or just didn't exist. I don't offered anything interesting thematically, besides shadow. and even the bonus levels they reside in aren't good. Like super sonic, never really felt sonic... ey to me. Yeah its been around a while, I still don't like it.

1) Because numbers.
2) Canonically, only 10 (forgot about Mecha Sonic, Metal Sonic, The Biolizard, Black Doom, and Imperator Ix) characters have directly tapped into the power of the Emeralds. Saying that anyone can use them when the games have only shown that certain entities can is againist rationality. Calling the Emeralds "time space powered batteries" is wrong because a) they are not powered by time and/or space and b) they're mystical artifacts. And the emeralds have only appeared in 3 other forms of media: comics, AoStH and Sonic X. Also, please clean up the grammar for the last 4 sentences because I can't understand what you're saying.
3) You're wrong in that you believe Shadow can only achieve boost mode because of game mechanics. Shadow wouldn't be much of a rival in speed if he couldn't keep up with him. It wouldn't make sense for Shadow, the 2nd or 3rd fastest character, including Metal Sonic, to only be canonically incapable of using the boost mode when Blaze, who according to Rush gameplay, is slower than Sonic. In actuallity, it's both: Gameplay wise, he's got the boost to make it a challenge but canonically it's because he's fast enough. There's no reason to overthink this.
4)Underdog. You keep saying that word but I don't think you know what it means, which is a shame because I even linked the definition in my last reply. An underdog is someone who is expected to lose, like the main character's team in every sports movie. Pardon me if I sound condescending but 9 times out of 10, if the character's name is the title, he's pretty much expected to always win. Sonic is the opposite of an everyman: He almost never struggles and always comes out on top in the end, most of the time on his own. The only time Sonic's fights have been inconclusive were during most of the rival battles in the series. The appeal is supposed to come from the viewer being amazed by how cool he is. He is in no way ordinary because ordinary isn't cool and Sonic is supposed to be the epitome of cool.

And saying Sonic is like Goku shows that you don't really understand him. Sure, DBZ did influence some aspects of Sonic but the only things Sonic and Goku have in common are them being protagonists, the presence of a super form and that they both enjoy a good fight. You don't see Sonic constantly honing his fighting skills or entering fighting tournaments to be the best that no one ever was. And Sonic may be impulsive but he's no an idiot. The super form really is just another way of saying that there are things Sonic can't handle on his own. Him relying on the Emeralds in practice isn't that much different from relying on his friends. And in most the latest games, the plot hasn't even revolved around the Emeralds. Colors and Lost World pretty much had the same basis for the final fight, right down the Eggman shaped explosion. Nearly all of your arguments are based on things that have been addressed and don't quite make sense. Being frank here, it doesn't look like you have a very firm grasp on how Sonic operates.
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby Village » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:59 pm

Azul wrote:1) Because numbers.
2) Canonically, only 10 (forgot about Mecha Sonic, Metal Sonic, The Biolizard, Black Doom, and Imperator Ix) characters have directly tapped into the power of the Emeralds. Saying that anyone can use them when the games have only shown that certain entities can is againist rationality. Calling the Emeralds "time space powered batteries" is wrong because a) they are not powered by time and/or space and b) they're mystical artifacts. And the emeralds have only appeared in 3 other forms of media: comics, AoStH and Sonic X. Also, please clean up the grammar for the last 4 sentences because I can't understand what you're saying.
3) You're wrong in that you believe Shadow can only achieve boost mode because of game mechanics. Shadow wouldn't be much of a rival in speed if he couldn't keep up with him. It wouldn't make sense for Shadow, the 2nd or 3rd fastest character, including Metal Sonic, to only be canonically incapable of using the boost mode when Blaze, who according to Rush gameplay, is slower than Sonic. In actuallity, it's both: Gameplay wise, he's got the boost to make it a challenge but canonically it's because he's fast enough. There's no reason to overthink this.
4)Underdog. You keep saying that word but I don't think you know what it means, which is a shame because I even linked the definition in my last reply. An underdog is someone who is expected to lose, like the main character's team in every sports movie. Pardon me if I sound condescending but 9 times out of 10, if the character's name is the title, he's pretty much expected to always win. Sonic is the opposite of an everyman: He almost never struggles and always comes out on top in the end, most of the time on his own. The only time Sonic's fights have been inconclusive were during most of the rival battles in the series. The appeal is supposed to come from the viewer being amazed by how cool he is. He is in no way ordinary because ordinary isn't cool and Sonic is supposed to be the epitome of cool.

And saying Sonic is like Goku shows that you don't really understand him. Sure, DBZ did influence some aspects of Sonic but the only things Sonic and Goku have in common are them being protagonists, the presence of a super form and that they both enjoy a good fight. You don't see Sonic constantly honing his fighting skills or entering fighting tournaments to be the best that no one ever was. And Sonic may be impulsive but he's no an idiot. The super form really is just another way of saying that there are things Sonic can't handle on his own. Him relying on the Emeralds in practice isn't that much different from relying on his friends. And in most the latest games, the plot hasn't even revolved around the Emeralds. Colors and Lost World pretty much had the same basis for the final fight, right down the Eggman shaped explosion. Nearly all of your arguments are based on things that have been addressed and don't quite make sense. Being frank here, it doesn't look like you have a very firm grasp on how Sonic operates.


Ok so,

2) you admitted that characters can infarct use the chaos emeralds, but now have used the goal moving caviat of saying that they can " directly" tap into the power of the chaos emeralds. Which wasn't ever my point, my point was characters can and have used chaos emeralds who do have canonical super forms to power up in games and in comic books and in other media. But ok.

3) You accuse me of not understanding sonic, later but right now it seems you don't understand shadow. " he wouldn't be much of rival if he couldn't keep up with his speed" Good thing he can stop time, and teleport. Those things that completely eliminate the need for boost powers entirely, or the concept of speed, and makes shadow effectively through abilities the fastest thing in the universe because of how teleportation and time stops, or the concepts their of . Which in a game which I think was my point earlier, would make way more sense to use as opposed to giving shadow a boost function. Particularly time stop. But ok.

4) People get different things out of sonic and art in general. I have never asserted my views as " canon " or " absolute" I think of sonic as an every man, I think the chaos emeralds are lame. But to suggest I do not understand seems... extreme? All I said was I would prefer sonic to be more of a guy instead of some " super cool here guy " he was cool to me because he was just a dude. Its one of the things the comics used too and boom does best now. just treats sonic as just... a dude. This isn't to say someone can't completely misinterpret a character I and a lot of folks apparently feel that way about shadow in boom.But the idea that I don't functionally understand a character, despite the interpretation of that character... is in existence in multiple sonic media, and isn't exactly criticized much. Seems, 1:extreme, 2: rude, and 3: a possible desire to posses a fictional character nether of us have control over. Unless you secretly work for sega.
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby Meliden » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:52 pm

It's been confirmed that not everyone can utilise the power of the Chaos Emeralds. Most of the ones seen have either been outright deities or very powerful otherwise (Ix...is from a game which had shoddy understanding of Sonic anyway. :/), only male hedgehogs are able to utilise them for themselves out of the 'normal' cast. The Sonic Heroes thing was basically Sonic using his power to wrap around Tails and Knuckles because they couldn't do it for themselves as they have no super forms. They do have use to power machines, but I'm guessing just exerting energy is less dangerous than giving power upgrades to persons (which would cover Emerl. Emerl's actually a great case because he showed how bad giving chaos power to a person can work out).

Shadow really would not be nearly as effective as a rival if he didn't have his speed. He can do all that teleport business, but the point is that they're very similar in qualities on a physical level so they have tension pitting those qualities against each other.

And Sonic (not main game Snic at least) is not an everyman, not when his entire schtick was having that teenage 'cool' edge to counter a genuine everyman, Mario.
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby Village » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:14 pm

I'm not saying he can't go fast.

He can run fast. Sonic just can boost speed. Instead of boosting, shadow has a slow mo ability and more platforming utility via teleports. This could create interesting game play situations via navigation. This is all I am suggesting. I'm not saying he should be big the cat, I just think we can create interesting scenarios for alt characters in stages.
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby Azul » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:36 pm

Village wrote:Ok so,

2) you admitted that characters can infarct use the chaos emeralds, but now have used the goal moving caviat of saying that they can " directly" tap into the power of the chaos emeralds. Which wasn't ever my point, my point was characters can and have used chaos emeralds who do have canonical super forms to power up in games and in comic books and in other media. But ok.

3) You accuse me of not understanding sonic, later but right now it seems you don't understand shadow. " he wouldn't be much of rival if he couldn't keep up with his speed" Good thing he can stop time, and teleport. Those things that completely eliminate the need for boost powers entirely, or the concept of speed, and makes shadow effectively through abilities the fastest thing in the universe because of how teleportation and time stops, or the concepts their of . Which in a game which I think was my point earlier, would make way more sense to use as opposed to giving shadow a boost function. Particularly time stop. But ok.

4) People get different things out of sonic and art in general. I have never asserted my views as " canon " or " absolute" I think of sonic as an every man, I think the chaos emeralds are lame. But to suggest I do not understand seems... extreme? All I said was I would prefer sonic to be more of a guy instead of some " super cool here guy " he was cool to me because he was just a dude. Its one of the things the comics used too and boom does best now. just treats sonic as just... a dude. This isn't to say someone can't completely misinterpret a character I and a lot of folks apparently feel that way about shadow in boom.But the idea that I don't functionally understand a character, despite the interpretation of that character... is in existence in multiple sonic media, and isn't exactly criticized much. Seems, 1:extreme, 2: rude, and 3: a possible desire to posses a fictional character nether of us have control over. Unless you secretly work for sega.

I'm sensing a bit of misplaced antagonism.
2) I never said that any other characters aside from the By using the Emeralds, I meant directly tapping into it from the get go. The characters I listed are the only ones who wouldn't have to use a machine or any other outside means to harness their power. I didn't change anything, that's you putting words in my mouth. In the games, the only heroes who have canon super forms are the male hedgehogs. Super Knux and Tails were only game elements, hence why they lack super forms in Sonic Heroes. The other media are its own thing, I'm not concerned about them since they have their own properties and rules.
3) You playing the "No you" card is very immature and a baseless retort. Its very obvious the only reason you said that is because I said you didn't understand Sonic and not because anything I said actually indicated a lack of understanding for Shadow. But too bad I had a No You card face down as well. Shadow's entire concept is that he's Sonic's grumpy twin. In SA2 and Sonic Heroes, Shadow was basically just a pallete swap of Sonic. You do realize that part of what makes Shadow Sonic's rival is because he's practically as fast as and agile as him, right? It makes no sense to call Shadow Sonic's rival if he relies on CC instead of super speed. Shadow using CC to counter Sonic's super speed is illogical because Sonic can use CC too. You're treating Shadow more like Zoom. Its as simple as "Shadow is superior in using chaos abilites while Sonic is overall a better speedster."
4) Dude. You just said Sonic was an everyman. You said Sonic was appealing to you because you thought he was an everyman over coming great odds. Even though its a wrong interpretation, that's exactly the same thing as saying "Sonic = everyman = canon" because that's what you thought he was. You believed something was fact even though it was wrong. And no, it's not rude or extreme, it's assertive, blunt honesty. You comparing Sonic as basically Goku simply because of the presence of a super form is an inaccurate oversimplification of his character and the Sonic mythos. And little characterization or not, even though little character development would be correct, there's still more than enough personality to distinguish him from Goku.

And Sonic's entire character revolves around him being a super cool dude. He was never just a guy.
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby Astrobot7000 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:59 am

Meliden wrote:only male hedgehogs are able to utilise them for themselves


As far as I know this was only derived from rumors of a Sonic bible which have been floating around with no actual proof. It's possible new evidence has come to light that I am not aware of though. Has there been some new development on that?

But boy I hope that's not true. That is such a dumb rule. Why would male hedgehogs and no one else outside of special circumstances be able to go super? It makes no sense.
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby Meliden » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:06 am

The Sonic Bible came at the same time as Aaron Webber gave an interview where he confirmed the two worlds thing that was in it.

The bible has also apparently been explicitly seen by someone who's worked with SEGA, GeneHF. And Iizuka's said stuff on most of the points of it before then, including the super form thing.
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby Village » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:27 pm

Azul wrote:
Village wrote:
And Sonic's entire character revolves around him being a super cool dude. He was never just a guy.


The reason he was super cool to me, was because he was just a guy.

Clearly we value different things.
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby The KKM » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:07 pm

Sonic IS like Goku more than people think. At least assuming we're talking original Goku- I hear Funimation gives him more of a "we must fight evil!" shtick, when his point is just that he lives for fighting and built his life around it.

Replace fighting with "adventuring/travelling", and it's pretty much Sonic.
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:53 am

The KKM wrote:Sonic IS like Goku more than people think. At least assuming we're talking original Goku- I hear Funimation gives him more of a "we must fight evil!" shtick, when his point is just that he lives for fighting and built his life around it.

Replace fighting with "adventuring/travelling", and it's pretty much Sonic.


"ALLY TO GOOD! NIGHTMARE TO YOU!"

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby Azul » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:24 pm

LBD_Nytetrayn wrote:"ALLY TO GOOD! NIGHTMARE TO YOU!"

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

Sonic, after achieveing the legendary Super Hedgehog on Litte Planet.
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby The KKM » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:20 pm

Yeah that's uh

ugh

thanks, dubs
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby Mr.Unsmiley » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:43 pm

the actual Goku is a god dang bumpkin who didn't know what indoor lighting was until the age of 12
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Re: Will the other characters ever be playable again?

Postby The KKM » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:00 pm

Well that's more to do with how he was raised, he's not like Luffy who seems to have the awareness of a door

But point is, Goku is a fighter character, not a super hero, and if you replace "fight" with "travelling/adventure", you've pretty much got Sonic down to a T. Maybe add a bit more snark, but in terms of motivations and all, that's that.
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