A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Forum devoted to Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Universe and the entire Sonic line by Archie Comics.

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Penguin God » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:01 pm

So this whole story's about how Rouge doesn't talk to Shadow enough, but they actually do talk in Shadowfall. It's mostly quick little snippets, but they do talk about Shadow's character (and his tendency to bottle up instead of talk things through). They talk about their trust in each other, about Shadow's feelings on the Black Arms, his immediate response to sacrifice himself over others, they even directly call each other buddy-buddy. We're talking about things we want that Shadowfall didn't supposedly do, but it specifically explicitly did those things.
User avatar
Penguin God
BumbleCult
 
Posts: 8406
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:28 pm

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Village » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:47 pm

I would make the argument that, that did not infact happen.

The most substancial thing , which you mention which is rouge talking about shadow and his feelings is rendered useless. Because shadow is mind controlled, if that wasn't the case... that conversation wouldn't even have happened. And considered shadow was being controlled, and not doing this of his own volition, it was worthless because He proves immediately after which you mention he is willing to sacrifice himself. But on that shadows end that isn't much, because he... kind of puts his neck out for everyone. Thats like super man saying I would take a bullet for you , super man would take a bullet for like everyone. And odds are he ain't dying from it. Because abilities and plot armor.

And on the rouge end of this thing, shadow... as we mentioned had to... attempt to murder her to get a response...and it wasn't even accurate to the situation. And you mention tidbits but they weren't substantial whats so ever, just... throwaway dialogue. " don't go too deep " " are you ok " In normal circumstances would be fine, barely. But this... like the aliens, the context of where they from who they are shadow, the mission leader telling them not to trust shadow before hand... it doesn't really do the job. Like the approach on that, when the gun soldiers bad mouth shadow and rouge is like hey shut up. But... that thread goes nowhere.Now, if they totally do a Gun against shadow thing next time shadow is around, then that is retroactively justfied, and I will eat all the crow. But as it stands, its nothing dialogue in an unfinished plot thread.

Nothing but throwaway dialogue, the only substantial piece of dialogue is rendered pointless because of the circumstances, and no where near enough dialouge in this context to show and actual friendship. Again shadow... had try and murder her to get that out of her. Knuckles... just went on a walk with her. Like... really? I don't agree, the only thing out of rouge that seems to indicate any kind of caring outside of her being almost murdered was her getting mad at shadow at the end. And that read as generic anime tsundere mess rather than anything substantial, because the friendship part to justify that reaction.. didn't happen. Like why didn't rouge talk to shadow like she just talked to knuckle while they were walking on that ship. They had time to talk, sure gun soilders were around, but they couldn't really give a @#$%.

But shes just like " oh... are you ok... oh no shadow.... don't go.... oh no " and that is kind of it.

It doesn't really do any of those things.
Last edited by Village on Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Village
BumbleCitizen
 
Posts: 430
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:59 am

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Mobotropolis » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:51 pm

Because despite the narrative you have seemed to created for team dark, rouge and omega are supposed to care a great deal about shadow.

Yes. They do care about Shadow.

There are a great many types of relationships in this great ol' big world. Not all of them are black and white, and not all types are exactly the same. Just because a person doesn't partake in a particular activity with you when you want (or " need ") it doesn't mean they don't care.

It's ... well ... complicated.

I think the day you take that guy out for ice cream.

And what if he says " no "?

Do you press the issue? Do you force him?

To be fair, the only two instances I could think of where Shadow would even have a moment severe enough to warrant that type of scenario in the book would be when he first got his memories back and Shadow Fall. In the former case he didn't have anyone he could talk to at the time. The latter just happened and it's too soon to see if he'd actually been impacted by that, if anything.
Mobotropolis
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:52 pm

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Village » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:02 pm

Mobotropolis wrote:
Because despite the narrative you have seemed to created for team dark, rouge and omega are supposed to care a great deal about shadow.

Yes. They do care about Shadow.

There are a great many types of relationships in this great ol' big world. Not all of them are black and white, and not all types are exactly the same. Just because a person doesn't partake in a particular activity with you when you want (or " need ") it doesn't mean they don't care.

It's ... well ... complicated.

Not really they kind of layed out them being friends and are willing to follow shadow in like... sonic 06. I really like sonic, i'll defend it, even the bad stuff. But there are very very few relationships in sonic that I would call... complicated.


Mobotropolis wrote:And what if he says " no "?

Do you press the issue? Do you force him?

If we are talking about shadow. Yes, because as several people have proven through out the course of this comic, even relic a charcter who knows nothing about shadow. Was getting shadow to talk... by just talking to him. A lot of people forget this, shadow isn't a punch first ask questions later kind of guy. Even in sonic adventure 2, he didn't particularly care... about sonic or much of anyone else, he had his goals. Its why amy was able to talk to him. He would much rather talk than punch. So this idea that we are talking about a person unwilling to talk, is disproved by examples given in the op post. Shadow doesn't mind talking, you just have to talk to him. And if you are supposedly shadows friend, you should know that. Even acquaintances to shadow know that. Its the premise of his game, at the end of the day he's a good guy willing to humor you. So just talk ,force the issue . Maybe have a breakhrough
Village
BumbleCitizen
 
Posts: 430
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:59 am

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Shadowclaw98 » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:32 pm

Still, I'm not sure (and I don't think the majority that have replied are either) the reasoning behind your criticism.

There are flaws with the Archie!Team Dark dynamic, I will admit that; Omega's mostly comic relief, Rouge is a little TOO untrustworthy for my personal tastes, at least pre-SGW, and you could in fact argue that Shadow's actions in both the comics and the games are not even motivated by 'the greater good'. he just sides with whoever has the best chance of helping him fulfill Maria's dying wish if you really wanted to be cynical. And I have said I would like them having more screen time in the main series.

I've already given examples that Team Dark DO care about each other in the pre-SGW world, but since they're 'out of context', apparently, it can be argued that Team Dark in the post-SGW just hasn't had a decent chance to shine yet.

But when you quote what you call 'throwaway dialogue', you seem to be missing the point. Ahhh...example:

*Rouge: "Don't go too deep." When Rouge says that, she's concerned but she TRUSTS Shadow enough to know that he'll be fine.

And after Shadow is freed from Black Death's mind control, how is THAT rendered useless if he wasn't controlled at all? She'd still be concerned. Like I said earlier, Team Dark is made of largely solitary people: Shadow is loner because of his issues and I doubt being manipulated twice helped his trust issues; Rouge is just...Rouge, no one knows what really goes through her head and Omega is, well, a robot. So the fact that he can engage in camaraderie with them is a clue as to how much he cares.

*Omega: Issue 61, page 11 "You two are the only meatbags I tolerate...trust."

The whole Shadow being mind controlled is to prove how much they care about each other.

As for the Commander not trusting Shadow, I have the entire line here:

*GUN Commander: "The fact is Shadow is part alien. We're utilizing that for this mission. But we cannot turn a blind eye that it might give the Black Arms a possible edge as well."

Then Rouge points out the Shadow saved Mobius/Earth/whatever-it's-called (more than once) and Omega threatens to KILL the Commander at the mention that he's a liability. How does that not show Rouge and Omega care???

And, while the Commander has made his peace, the majority of GUN still view Shadow as that monster that sided with Black Doom and then switched sides when he disagreed with Doom's plan. I imagine GUN's general distrust of Shadow is going to be brought up again though, it's too big a plot thread to just leave.
Shadowclaw98
BumbleNewbie
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:25 am

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Mordum » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:38 pm

Shadowclaw98 wrote:
There are flaws with the Archie!Team Dark dynamic, I will admit that; Omega's mostly comic relief, Rouge is a little TOO untrustworthy for my personal tastes, at least pre-SGW, and you could in fact argue that Shadow's actions in both the comics and the games are not even motivated by 'the greater good'. he just sides with whoever has the best chance of helping him fulfill Maria's dying wish if you really wanted to be cynical. And I have said I would like them having more screen time in the main series.


How are these flaws?
User avatar
Mordum
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:58 am

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Shadowclaw98 » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:44 pm

I just feel they could be utilized a bit more often, that's all. I suck at explaining things.
Shadowclaw98
BumbleNewbie
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:25 am

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Mordum » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:46 pm

It's just weird to read that one of Shadow's character flaws is that he has his own specific, personal motivation.
User avatar
Mordum
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:58 am

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Village » Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:23 pm

Shadowclaw98 wrote:And, while the Commander has made his peace, the majority of GUN still view Shadow as that monster that sided with Black Doom and then switched sides when he disagreed with Doom's plan. I imagine GUN's general distrust of Shadow is going to be brought up again though, it's too big a plot thread to just leave.


I'll give you screen time is probably a major issue. But I'm going to dissagree , but I think maybe we might be going around in circles bit. We just don't seem to agree on the value of the dialogue. In context , and that's totally ok. If you like that that's fine, point of threads we are already doing better than a lot of sonic threads related to shadow which usually devolve into yelling through text. So on that level I appreciate that , whats going on here.

As for this quote right here, again. If they do steve rodgers/patriot, Shadow fugitive story arc where like gun and the FF and stuff are after him and they got him framed for some crazy @#$%. Not only will I eat all the crow, I will buy several copies of that arc. But as of currently I have to judge it how I feel on its merits, and i feel its a bit unfinished and the character interactions, lacking. Thats sort of the flaw with the medium, its never ending entertainment and all that Its why I waited a year to do make this thread to see if it went anywhere. I'm not judging worlds unite for at least a year and this silver stuff for another year.
Village
BumbleCitizen
 
Posts: 430
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:59 am

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Shadowclaw98 » Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:00 am

It's just weird to read that one of Shadow's character flaws is that he has his own specific, personal motivation.


That specific one was a 'you could view it as' thing. I'm personally not fussed over that one.

I'll give you screen time is probably a major issue. But I'm going to dissagree , but I think maybe we might be going around in circles bit. We just don't seem to agree on the value of the dialogue. In context , and that's totally ok. If you like that that's fine, point of threads we are already doing better than a lot of sonic threads related to shadow which usually devolve into yelling through text. So on that level I appreciate that , whats going on here.


Guess will have to agree to disagree, eh? Haha.
Shadowclaw98
BumbleNewbie
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:25 am

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Mavrickindigo » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:15 pm

Ive come to see Shadow as a character who is a genuine friend in fiction. Sonic is more of a loner and hearing him talk about friendship was so artificial in sonic heroes, yet shadow rurning down mephiles in 06 felt real
User avatar
Mavrickindigo
BumbleCult
 
Posts: 6309
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:09 pm
Location: USA

Re: A criticism of Team Dark in this comic

Postby Village » Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:59 pm

I wouldn't say sonic is loner, but I will say shadow has been proven in game, comic, anime, cartoon what have you. That if you want someone who is down for whatever, he is your dude. @#$% that is the whole point of his game. He's down to clown man.

If they ever just made a shadow only comic, I hope its just that shadow just being dragged into shenanigans.
Village
BumbleCitizen
 
Posts: 430
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:59 am

Previous

Return to This Side of Mobius



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

cron