Smash badnik and again and again

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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:47 pm

Striker wrote:
Mordum wrote:
Striker wrote: That and it's like 1 of a few series that 4kids did right imo.


A show being created with S&P in mind is always going to do at least a little better, in terms of content, than a show premade and needed to be fitted around S&P after the fact, in fairness.


S&P?


Standards & Practices.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby Mr.Unsmiley » Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:55 pm

Ian Flynn wrote:TMNT!2003 did a lot of things right, a lot of things well, and I enjoyed it too. But there was also this nagging feeling it had become what it fought against. TMNT originally was largely a parody of the mainstream superhero books, with origin of the Turtles a mockery of the campy, often convoluted origin stories of superheroes. It was also a mishmash of horror movies, old kung-fu movies, and it took off and became it's own thing. By 2003, the series felt like it'd come full circle and become your standard action cartoon series.


but wasnt the 2003 series just adapting the original comic books, which were much edgier than the 80s cartoon?
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby Mordum » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:23 pm

Tones can change in adaptation, and adapting a series born out of a Daredevil parody into a straight action thing isn't going to have the same vibe.

Not a statement of preference toward any one particular incarnation, mind, but a comic book parody's major iconography being adapted into a non-satirical comic book cartoon DOES describe 2k3 really well.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby Mavrickindigo » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:32 pm

SonicBlueRanger wrote:
Striker wrote:
Mordum wrote:
Striker wrote: That and it's like 1 of a few series that 4kids did right imo.


A show being created with S&P in mind is always going to do at least a little better, in terms of content, than a show premade and needed to be fitted around S&P after the fact, in fairness.


S&P?


Standards & Practices.

Reminds me of how Reboot, a show made within S&P, mocked it every chance they got. Made it all the better for it, and is part of the only reason season one is passably watchable
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby GentlemanX » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:08 am

Since we're so far off topic right now...

I'm a huge fan of 2k3 and 2k12, and honestly for very different reasons. 2k3 was this big epic that took the universe of the comics, largely untapped in the Turtles franchise at this point, and brought those ideas to life. I completely acknowledge that it is a more standard action cartoon, because that's what it was setting out to do since the '87 cartoon wasn't that. What I love about 2k3 is it's ambition; how much content they sought to cover and their conviction to due it justice. It's a show that could get those really epic stories like Return to New York, Fugitoid/Space Invaders, Big Brawl, City at War, Exodus, Ninja Tribunal, etc. etc. I always like to compare 2k3 and 2k12 in terms of where they're at to emphasize this difference: we did the Return to New York story in season three of 2k12 and are still dealing with primarily New York centered stuff, we'll be getting to the Fugitoid/Triceraton stuff in season four. In 2k3 we got Fugitoid and Battle Nexus in the second season and we were approaching Exodus now. That's an outrageous difference in terms of amount of content.

That's not to say I find 2k12 bad - far from it; besides Steven Universe it's my favorite show on North American TV right now. 2k12 is a love letter to the entire TMNT franchise. It has the silliness of the '87 cartoon, it has the action of 2k3, it has respect for movies, and it still wants to add to the franchise. It's a show that involves pizza mutants, at least eight sub-bosses for Shredder right now, re-imagines characters like Hun and Karai, not to mention April and Casey's new ages, directly adapts scenes from the '90 film, and throws nods around to nearly everything else, like say Razar for example. All of that while maintaining always spot on writing for the characters. It's a show with a lot of life in it that absolutely adores everything that has made up TMNT over the years. It's a franchise with humanoid turtles that eat pizza and sometimes say cowabunga and sometimes say boo-ya-ka-sha. It's also a franchise where a master teaches his students fighting techniques to rise to the task of facing many great evils. It's also a franchise where a father defends his sons against old enemies only for his children to rise to the challenge. It knows all of that, and wants viewers to know all of that too.

Two really good shows that I just love to bits. At some point I'll watch the '87 cartoon again and figure out where it falls in this equation. :P

So um... right this is a Sonic topic. :oops: I personally find the comic better when the badnik bashing is more something that happens while other things are happening. The first thing that comes to mind is a moment in "Heroes" when Silver Sonic catches Sonic by surprise bursting through a house. Sonic was doing other things and then suddenly badnik. That I think is how to best utilize the grunts in the comics. This doesn't apply when Sonic is fighting a specific enemy of course. Sonic fighting Eta on the train or one of Eggman's robots of the week on Sonic X are much better because the scene essentially becomes a boss fight and that plays much better in terms of action. Maybe it's a bad comparison since I dislike literally everything about the Boom cartoon anyway, but the badnik fighting is one of the more painful aspects of the show. The show doesn't want to be an action series, it very clearly wants to be a comedy piece. So whenever Sonic has to fight motobugs or something it essentially devolves into character models awkwardly punching at things before the next joke can come in. I'd really like to avoid something like that happening in the comics. Don't show me Sonic running through Green Hill Zone bouncing off crabmeat; I'll get a lot more out of that encounter by playing one of the games. Have Sonic bounce off a crabmeat to reach the upper level of a structure of a Gaia temple the Freedom Fighters are exploring. Don't get rid of the grunts, just move past them fairly quickly so we can get to the richer story telling stuff or the more vibrant choices of action pieces.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby apprentice manta » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:29 am

TMNT stuff in spoilers cause it's less on-topic
Spoiler: show
re Nick TMNT: The "body horror" aspect is my least fave part of that show. It doesn't faze everybody, that's cool. Even my nephews just take the horror in stride, focusing more on comedy & the "ninja stuff".

I completely understand why the body horror mutations happens (narrative wise, they made sense as consequences for actions) but still: I felt so bad for Timothy, Kirby, Ice Cream Kitty, even some of the "bad guy" mutants. etc

ie Was Xever aggressive, arrogant, cruel, petty, would attack someone regardless of if the fight was "fair" or not? Absolutely. Did he snipe at Bradford* constantly & straight up bully Baxter*? Absolutely. Do I miss Xever's stylish fro, dance battler flair, & feel sorry that he can't breathe w/out that gill mask or walk on land unless he's got robo-legs? Yeah. Fishface netted some pity points.

*Bradford & Baxter are also full of chara flaws. Bradford's ego is ginormous, dude has zero respect for anyone NOT named Bradford/Rahzar, he's more obnoxious than Chuck Norris (yeah, I know he was always meant to be a Norris parody/archetype. He's still a sexist, racist jerk.)

Baxter is harder to describe: brilliant but it's a mad scientist-y kind of brilliant, resentful but at the same time he''s somebody whose life stank/continues to stink for so long, why wouldn't he be resentful? But Baxter's done his share of crimes, some on Shredder's orders, some on his own initiative. Baxter's been both victim & instigator. I've still got pity for Brundlefly Stockman.

I don't think I ever pitied Bradford. Mikey could not unfriend that guy fast enough! Sorry, not that sorry. Everyone has standards. I even have double standards at times. ;)


Now back to Sonic!

re Sonic vs badniks: I prefer the badnik fights to a. have some humor in them (snappy insults, shout-outs to previous games or cartoons, 4th wall comments by Bean, funny crowd reaction shots etc)

b. be visually interesting (panel borders w/ jagged edges, sound effects, maybe a double-page spread for more elaborate battles, a sense of forward momentum/speed to Sonic's movements)

c. impact the plot or move the story along in some way (I don't care if it's a big impact or a little impact. Sonic could trounce some badniks on his way to rescue a friend OR to be first in line to get a chili dog, Just give me a reason why Sonic was jonesin' for a chili dog before he started smashin' & dashin'.)

d. all of the above

I'm also fine w/ their being more 'serious' fights, but I don't think every Sonic vs. <insert chara> battle needs to be high stakes or played for drama.

Fight scenes could even start out silly, then change in tone. If the transition is handled smoothly thru dialogue, visual sequence, or both; the silly to serious + vice versa moments can have even more emotional resonance than if the comic had been all drama for <X number of pages> or all jokes.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:08 am

SonicBlueRanger wrote:
Ian Flynn wrote:
Astrobot7000 wrote:Specifically, I am talking about the Ninja Turtles 2003 series that was excellent at making action count for something. I haven't seen the new computer animated series though. I imagine it’s just mindless children's programming like the original 1980s series.

It is the best version of the Turtles to date.


Agreed.


I'm in agreement as well, but only because we haven't reached a point of derailment/whiplash like Fast Forward. I'd say everything before that point is fairly comparable.

GentlemanX wrote:At some point I'll watch the '87 cartoon again and figure out where it falls in this equation. :P


I more or less agree with the bulk of this post, but as to this part? God help us all.

As for the topic, I think it's a similar situation as with Metal Sonic -- the Badniks simply need to be more threatening. Having them be led by "Horde Commanders" like Silver Sonic kind of helps, but in general, I think it would be good to let some of them land more shots, and especially show what they can do in a layman-type situation.

Think back to the start of Sonic Adventure. Sonic easily trounces Chaos in his base form, but the police were having a bit of a time with him. Or the intro of Mega Man Zero, when a Golem and the Pantheons are mowing down members of the Resistance before Zero comes in to send them to the scrap heap.

The big thing with these heroes and villains is that they're supposed to be larger than life, and it's easy to forget that for "normal" people, some of these things can be quite threatening.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby Astrobot7000 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:38 am

Ah, the '87 cartoon. In this world, an alien space craft can crash in the middle of NYC with no one except the turtles noticing. Oh, and Shredder, who was just suspiciously hanging out behind a bush at the crash site location. That's some strong story telling right there. Don't ge me wrong, I grew up on this show. It was my world. But it sure was a nonsensical children's cartoon, specifically designed for children, rather than an all ages audience. Where if you take something like Beast Wars, with deep characters, a strong plot, and action sequences that are actually meaningful to the story (except for most of season 3, when they were told they needed to make it campier). It was still a show children loved, but their parents could like too. Anyway, that's how I see the difference between media designed for all ages and those that are designed for children. It doesn't have to be grimdark, or incredibly serious, and it can still be cartoony, it just has to go a bit deeper than the surface of the characters or the situations. I know you'll likely disagree SonicBlueRanger, but there ya go.

As for Sonic's Badniks, do they still have mobinis inside of them in the new continuity? I havonestly cant even remember. If so, one way to make badnik smashing for meaningful is to remind us of the plight of the critters inside the robots.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby akessel92 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:18 am

Astrobot7000 wrote:Ah, the '87 cartoon. In this world, an alien space craft can crash in the middle of NYC with no one except the turtles noticing. Oh, and Shredder, who was just suspiciously hanging out behind a bush at the crash site location. That's some strong story telling right there. Don't ge me wrong, I grew up on this show. It was my world. But it sure was a nonsensical children's cartoon, specifically designed for children, rather than an all ages audience. Where if you take something like Beast Wars, with deep characters, a strong plot, and action sequences that are actually meaningful to the story (except for most of season 3, when they were told they needed to make it campier). It was still a show children loved, but their parents could like too. Anyway, that's how I see the difference between media designed for all ages and those that are designed for children. It doesn't have to be grimdark, or incredibly serious, and it can still be cartoony, it just has to go a bit deeper than the surface of the characters or the situations. I know you'll likely disagree SonicBlueRanger, but there ya go.

As for Sonic's Badniks, do they still have mobinis inside of them in the new continuity? I havonestly cant even remember. If so, one way to make badnik smashing for meaningful is to remind us of the plight of the critters inside the robots.

Yep they do. See issue 258, 259 and light in the dark back up in waves of change.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:19 pm

Astrobot7000 wrote:Ah, the '87 cartoon. In this world, an alien space craft can crash in the middle of NYC with no one except the turtles noticing. Oh, and Shredder, who was just suspiciously hanging out behind a bush at the crash site location. That's some strong story telling right there. Don't ge me wrong, I grew up on this show. It was my world. But it sure was a nonsensical children's cartoon, specifically designed for children, rather than an all ages audience. Where if you take something like Beast Wars, with deep characters, a strong plot, and action sequences that are actually meaningful to the story (except for most of season 3, when they were told they needed to make it campier). It was still a show children loved, but their parents could like too. Anyway, that's how I see the difference between media designed for all ages and those that are designed for children. It doesn't have to be grimdark, or incredibly serious, and it can still be cartoony, it just has to go a bit deeper than the surface of the characters or the situations. I know you'll likely disagree SonicBlueRanger, but there ya go.


Wait are you being sarcastic because I thought if there was one ting I made clear it's my hatred of "Grimdark" material?
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby Astrobot7000 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:39 pm

My post was not aimed directly at you.
SonicBlueRanger wrote:
Astrobot7000 wrote:Ah, the '87 cartoon. In this world, an alien space craft can crash in the middle of NYC with no one except the turtles noticing. Oh, and Shredder, who was just suspiciously hanging out behind a bush at the crash site location. That's some strong story telling right there. Don't ge me wrong, I grew up on this show. It was my world. But it sure was a nonsensical children's cartoon, specifically designed for children, rather than an all ages audience. Where if you take something like Beast Wars, with deep characters, a strong plot, and action sequences that are actually meaningful to the story (except for most of season 3, when they were told they needed to make it campier). It was still a show children loved, but their parents could like too. Anyway, that's how I see the difference between media designed for all ages and those that are designed for children. It doesn't have to be grimdark, or incredibly serious, and it can still be cartoony, it just has to go a bit deeper than the surface of the characters or the situations. I know you'll likely disagree SonicBlueRanger, but there ya go.


Wait are you being sarcastic because I thought if there was one ting I made clear it's my hatred of "Grimdark" material?


I was merely giving examples as to what the difference of a product being designed for children might consist of, and what an all-ages product might consist of to me. I was trying to say that for something to be all-ages, which would inherrently include adults, it does not have to be grimdark or incredibly serious. It must have deeper characterizations, stories that go beyond the superficial, have real consequences for those involved, or deep lore. That doesn't necessarily mean death or high drama, but more along the lines of having actual character growth or a character learn from their mistakes or having a fight that might have real consequences for the plot. For example, I would consider the Looney Tunes, TMNT '87, and the Superfreinds for children. On the flip side, I would consider Justice League, TMNT '03 (again I haveb't seen the new one), and Adventure Time to be all-ages. Adventure Time is a unique animal because while originally a children's product it has definitely turned into an all ages product over the course of its run.

That is how I would define the difference between a childrens show and an all ages show. That does not mean an adult might not like a children's show though. It isn't mutually exclusive.

I mentioned you at the end because you will likely disagree with me if history is any indication. It was not my intention to say you enjoy serious or grimdark stories. But I would love to watch The Walking Dead: Sonic Edition with you, with extra Grimdark! :wink:
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