Smash badnik and again and again

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Smash badnik and again and again

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:12 am

I was recently rereading Mecha Sally arc. I enjoyed the drama, Eggman, Secret FF and Nagus' games. But one thing I didn't like were constant fights with EggSwats or DEL. That made me think: Is watching hero beat up thugs/minions/cannon fodder ever fun? Or is it just used to fill the pages/screen time?

It's easy to see a bad sides: One this doesn't move plot forward, so one can call it a waste of pages. Two, there isn't much drama, since we know that Sonic will never be beaten by Badniks or Avengers by HYDRA's soldiers.

Now, I can think of situations where it is fun: Batman and Spider-man (or even Superman) can beat small crooks in fun way. But they deal with robberies, hostage situations, falling planes, car chases, etc. while Sonic favours "badnik in front of you, smash it" scenario.

I'm still not sure what is my opinion on this one. What you guys think?
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby Astrobot7000 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:31 am

I personally, cant stand it. Over the last few years I have been thinking about retiring from the Sonic fandom. Im 30 now, and I have been a huge Sonic fan since I can remember. But the last few years have been such a grind for me. What you have described is a perfect example. So much wasted page time on action, action, and more action, when it should be used for deep character interaction or world building. A lot of this is simply my maturation though. What appealed to me when I was 20 simply doesn't now that Im 30. But I think some of it is a change in the comic's priorities too.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby Mavrickindigo » Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:17 am

Sonic Boom shoehorns scenes of badnik bashing and it sucks

Sonic Runners has scenes in the middle of the episodes where its literally "oh no, a badnik, Pow zap! let's move on" and it sucks

Bascially, the only times I think badnik bashing works in a story is when the badniks actually have personality. back in the Gallagher era, you'd have them make puns and laments about being destroyed, that gave them all character, but you knew they'd be coming back later on, anyway. I'm talking about back in the day before Ian Flynn unceremoniously said they were dead forever after that Isle of badniks storyline. Still a little salty over that one that he'd salvage only Coconuts from that brigade.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:15 am

I also hate it when the Power Rangers fight the villains soldiers, The Rebel Alliance fights Storm Troopers and the Ninja Turtles fight Foot Ninja.

I'm sorry but complaining about the characters fighting Badniks in any media is kinda silly. Badniks are disposable foot soldiers just as much as Swatbots were and I never saw anyone complain about Swatbots being used over and over and over.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby LordLaharlsVassal » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:28 am

SonicBlueRanger wrote:I also hate it when the Power Rangers fight the villains soldiers, The Rebel Alliance fights Storm Troopers and the Ninja Turtles fight Foot Ninja.

I'm sorry but complaining about the characters fighting Badniks in any media is kinda silly. Badniks are disposable foot soldiers just as much as Swatbots were and I never saw anyone complain about Swatbots being used over and over and over.

Just because it is a well used cliche doesn't mean it can't be done better, maybe there was something else those series did better with it or did something else better to make up for it, I don't see why we should not examine this and explore how it can be done better just because it is used alot.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:48 am

Well I didn't like how Swatbots were used over and over. Then again, Satam was less about fighting robots and more about stealth missions. "Spectacle" of fighting Swatbots wasn't the plan.

Mavrickindigo wrote:Sonic Boom shoehorns scenes of badnik bashing and it sucks

That's a good example. I alwyas feel like there was some 'smash badnik' quota that every episode has to fill and 90% times it's "same 3 types of badniks, everyone uses with their move, back to the plot"
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby akessel92 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:04 am

I think the stealthy stuff isn't totally phased out with spectacle badnik fight. Then again 264-267 weren't necessarily spectacle fights but rather stealthy that turned south because of ambush.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby Astrobot7000 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:14 am

SonicBlueRanger wrote:I also hate it when the Power Rangers fight the villains soldiers, The Rebel Alliance fights Storm Troopers and the Ninja Turtles fight Foot Ninja.

I'm sorry but complaining about the characters fighting Badniks in any media is kinda silly. Badniks are disposable foot soldiers just as much as Swatbots were and I never saw anyone complain about Swatbots being used over and over and over.


The difference here being that these other series you mentioned have strong lores with a cast of well defined and deeply interesting characters and action that (usually) is plot related, being relative. Fights aren't usually thrown in just to shoe horn in some action; of course there always exceptions. Now one could make an argument one way or the other about how deep and interesting Sonic's characters and lore are, but the point is that at least in Star Wars and the Ninja Turtles there are other things to make up for it, especially making the action count and have real plot relevance.

Specifically, I am talking about the Ninja Turtles 2003 series that was excellent at making action count for something. I haven't seen the new computer animated series though. I imagine it’s just mindless children's programming like the original 1980s series. Remember SonicBlueRanger, Donatello says don’t do drugs. I agree with on the Power Rangers though.

If Sonic wants to be about mindless action, action, and more action, than that isn’t bad. It is what it is. It becomes less about being more all-ages and more about being for children. Again, this is not necessarily a negative thing. It's just that adults will most likely want more than that. They would want the action to matter and have real significance to the characters involved. Having these shoe-horned in fights with nothing truly at stake and no real danger to the main character just makes it one-note. Which again, doesn’t make it bad - it just makes it more for children (and after all, it is a talking blue hedgehog). And like most things that are one-note, the original audience is going to fade away as they mature.

To love a comic like Sonic is to know one of two things: either it will eventually leave you, or you will eventually leave it. You’re going to be in until the thing is canceled or until you lose interest because you’ve either figured out all of the book’s tricks or it’s just not the same anymore. It will eventually feel sort of old and pointless to you after a while, and you’ll have moved on to something new that will inevitably disappoint you somewhere down the line in another 20 to 30 years. It's just part of maturing and wanting something more than the book can give you because you're no longer the target audience. You’ll someday remember that comic you loved with such intensity, like the old continuity, or the old cartoon, or the fleetway comic, or whatever your Sonic preference is, and you’ll wonder why it isn’t like that anymore. Why cant you feel the same about this series as the "old one” The “good” one? The answer is because you’re not who you were back then and you can’t really love a comic like that because you’re no longer the same person.

So if Sonic wants to be the book it is, I don’t consider it a bad thing. But it should be known that a lot of its original fans are going to fade away. Especially if the action is shoe horned in and doesn’t have any real meat to it.

And… wow. That got a lot more philosophical than I wanted it to. Err… sorry about that.

TLDR summary: The book is pretty much a children’s book now and shouldn’t really be considered all-ages any more, despite what they say. This isn’t a bad thing, it just requires new expectation. Therefore, pointless fights aren’t really bad as long as you know that going into it.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:57 am

Astro, while your little essay is interesting, that wasn't my point.

I don't want to discuss (here anyway) amount of action in comic, but amount of action that involves cannon fodders. Badniks, Swatbots, Egg Legion, Dark Gaia monsters, every enemies that aren't even close to be a challenge to main him.

For example, I likes issue 256. It wasn't about lore or characters, but Metal Sonic was a decent challenge for girls. In comparison in 255 it was just Sonic beating bunch of no bodies that didn't stand a chances with him and I wonder whenever it worse because of it or not.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby akessel92 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:48 pm

MetalSkulkBane wrote:Astro, while your little essay is interesting, that wasn't my point.

I don't want to discuss (here anyway) amount of action in comic, but amount of action that involves cannon fodders. Badniks, Swatbots, Egg Legion, Dark Gaia monsters, every enemies that aren't even close to be a challenge to main him.

For example, I likes issue 256. It wasn't about lore or characters, but Metal Sonic was a decent challenge for girls. In comparison in 255 it was just Sonic beating bunch of no bodies that didn't stand a chances with him and I wonder whenever it worse because of it or not.

There were other reasons why 255 was bad. Mainly the art. It wasn't just sonic beating up badniks as well. I.e. A certain two tailed fox and cyborg southern belle rabbit. Also, I must say I think it's still too early to judge this comic on it no longer being an all ages comic. I mean I still think there will be more to this reboot. The problem is we need to stick around.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby Astrobot7000 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:11 pm

I see what you mean there, sorry. But I did try to bring my thoughts back around to the fighting badniks though; because fights where Sonic destroys badniks are fluff fights with no consequence. It has the same meaning as purposeless fights with no real meaning behind them. So while I did get a bit whistfully off-topic, I think I still did answer the question. Smashing badniks again and again and again is bad because it adds no relevance or meaning to the book. If this still doesn't address the concern of the topic, then I appologize because I'm not sure what more I can add to it.

@akessel92: We have had the new continuity since issue 252 and we are now at issue 275/6. That is 24 issues over two years. Saying we need to stick around longer is not really an answer at this point. How much longer do we need to stick around until we can make a what could be determined as a fair amount of time before we can make a reasonable judgement? Another 20 years to be the same amount of time as the old continuity? I'm not trying to be flippant here, but if two years is not long enough to make a solid rationale of the new comic on its own merits than I would submit no rationale would be acceptable.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby akessel92 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:54 pm

Astrobot7000 wrote:I see what you mean there, sorry. But I did try to bring my thoughts back around to the fighting badniks though; because fights where Sonic destroys badniks are fluff fights with no consequence. It has the same meaning as purposeless fights with no real meaning behind them. So while I did get a bit whistfully off-topic, I think I still did answer the question. Smashing badniks again and again and again is bad because it adds no relevance or meaning to the book. If this still doesn't address the concern of the topic, then I appologize because I'm not sure what more I can add to it.

@akessel92: We have had the new continuity since issue 252 and we are now at issue 275/6. That is 24 issues over two years. Saying we need to stick around longer is not really an answer at this point. How much longer do we need to stick around until we can make a what could be determined as a fair amount of time before we can make a reasonable judgement? Another 20 years to be the same amount of time as the old continuity? I'm not trying to be flippant here, but if two years is not long enough to make a solid rationale of the new comic on its own merits than I would submit no rationale would be acceptable.

Well I think badnik fights aren't unpurposeful fights because they're designed aside from conquering the world, they are made to hold sonic and the rest of his friends allies at bay or stop them dead in their tracks so Eggman can succeed in his goals. I think the reason why we think they have no purpose is because we haven't seen them do what they used to do in the comics; destroy buildings, round up people or flickies to be turned into robots. As of now, do you wanna know who's terrozing citizens the dark gaia monsters that's who.

Also, I'm not saying to wait twenty. I'm saying to throw off the nostalgia glasses and also maybe read and comment on the discussion I put up recently.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby ChaosJam » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:18 pm

Astrobot7000 wrote:@akessel92: We have had the new continuity since issue 252 and we are now at issue 275/6. That is 24 issues over two years. Saying we need to stick around longer is not really an answer at this point. How much longer do we need to stick around until we can make a what could be determined as a fair amount of time before we can make a reasonable judgement? Another 20 years to be the same amount of time as the old continuity? I'm not trying to be flippant here, but if two years is not long enough to make a solid rationale of the new comic on its own merits than I would submit no rationale would be acceptable.

...24 issues isn't that long of a time at all, for any comic book. Especially since 4 of those issues were diverted to be used in the next crossover, so you're really only talking 20 issues. And I know we have 24 issues of Sonic Universe so you can argue that is technically 48-50 (Sonic Origins or whatever else round it up) issues to provide a decent premise but those don't focus on the main plot. They focus on...another character...in another part of the continuity...building the world around Sonic and his battles.
#252 was technically a new #1 so its best to look at it that way. You would expect to still be world building and figuring out the direction at this stage. The old continuity wasn't built over night, and it certainly wasn't built with very strong stories sometimes. In the origin continuity, nothing of real significance happened until Endgame. So that's 50 issues of waiting.
Though I have to be honest, I don't see how we haven't gotten "anything rationale" in the last 2 years. We have gotten a lot of new plots, new characters, new places and new stories since 252. I don't know what you think is missing. Convoluted political dramas with a million and one Knuckles clones? I do feel there is exploration to be had but we have only recently gotten to the point where we will be doing our real heavy character/world building. First we needed to get everyone together and ready to go; that's the characters, creators AND readers (Countdown to Chaos), then to assess the problem/start trying to figure it out (everything until #272). #272 introduced the actual journey Sonic and friends will need to take...the first real solution to the crisis that is happening has just been discovered. Then of course the crossover happens (which could have been steering/derailing some the plot in the main book as well).
I've been with the book since the beginning, I'm 30 years old too. My rationale is that these things take time and I'm willing to see how it turns out. I'm willing to be patient because I have seen things that I really do like in this new continuity. But to me, 2 years is not enough to make an ultimate judgement.

But to the point of the topic, I do agree that Sonic and company have been had a lot of fights already where battles are just "there". They happen then they are over, no real consequence or struggle. Are they terrorizing the world or are they just constantly being thrown at the Freedom Fighters? I don't know because I haven't seen them do anything but fight Sonic. The Badniks/E-Series robots/Egg Bosses are all interchangeable to me at this moment because they haven't been anything of any real consequence to anyone but I hope that when the main plot picks up again we will get to it.
The battle I think Ian got close to being right and what I like to see was with the secondary story of "Ambushed" (266/267). Sally and the Freedom Fighters get beat down and lose. We see that it does affect them emotionally and Sonic needs to raise spirits again. We also see Sonic admitting that keeping his Dark Gaia condition to himself had consequences and should have been upfront with everyone. I like seeing stuff like this, these are good moments to see. Why I say Ian only "got close" is because I feel he could have gone into that territory of "Are the Freedom Fighters a successful team without Sonic?" Do they think like that sometimes? Are they angry at themselves that they rely on Sonic a lot? Does Sonic feel that way too? These and other avenues are what I would like to see explored.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby Astrobot7000 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:33 pm

akessel92 wrote:
Astrobot7000 wrote:I see what you mean there, sorry. But I did try to bring my thoughts back around to the fighting badniks though; because fights where Sonic destroys badniks are fluff fights with no consequence. It has the same meaning as purposeless fights with no real meaning behind them. So while I did get a bit whistfully off-topic, I think I still did answer the question. Smashing badniks again and again and again is bad because it adds no relevance or meaning to the book. If this still doesn't address the concern of the topic, then I appologize because I'm not sure what more I can add to it.

@akessel92: We have had the new continuity since issue 252 and we are now at issue 275/6. That is 24 issues over two years. Saying we need to stick around longer is not really an answer at this point. How much longer do we need to stick around until we can make a what could be determined as a fair amount of time before we can make a reasonable judgement? Another 20 years to be the same amount of time as the old continuity? I'm not trying to be flippant here, but if two years is not long enough to make a solid rationale of the new comic on its own merits than I would submit no rationale would be acceptable.

Well I think badnik fights aren't unpurposeful fights because they're designed aside from conquering the world, they are made to hold sonic and the rest of his friends allies at bay or stop them dead in their tracks so Eggman can succeed in his goals. I think the reason why we think they have no purpose is because we haven't seen them do what they used to do in the comics; destroy buildings, round up people or flickies to be turned into robots. As of now, do you wanna know who's terrozing citizens the dark gaia monsters that's who.

Also, I'm not saying to wait twenty. I'm saying to throw off the nostalgia glasses and also maybe read and comment on the discussion I put up recently.


That's a good point actually. I would feel different about the Badnik's if I got to see them terorizing the basic populace, or a whole army of them conquering a city or something substantial. That would be pretty awesome actually and be a good reminder of why the battles are important. There was a cool scene with Metal Sonic harrasing the Keeper of Gia, or whatever his name is. Something like that would work. But until such a time, its just useless fodder. It's like a baby going up against a super fast lion.

Also, I did read your comment. Did you read mean? I was actual said that the "rose colored glasses of nostalgia" was not a good method of evaluating the comic on current run on its own terms and expectations needed to be changed to meet the intent of the current run by long time fans.

ChaosJam wrote:
Astrobot7000 wrote:@akessel92: We have had the new continuity since issue 252 and we are now at issue 275/6. That is 24 issues over two years. Saying we need to stick around longer is not really an answer at this point. How much longer do we need to stick around until we can make a what could be determined as a fair amount of time before we can make a reasonable judgement? Another 20 years to be the same amount of time as the old continuity? I'm not trying to be flippant here, but if two years is not long enough to make a solid rationale of the new comic on its own merits than I would submit no rationale would be acceptable.

Though I have to be honest, I don't see how we haven't gotten "anything rationale" in the last 2 years. We have gotten a lot of new plots, new characters, new places and new stories since 252. I don't know what you think is missing. Convoluted political dramas with a million and one Knuckles clones? I do feel there is exploration to be had but we have only recently gotten to the point where we will be doing our real heavy character/world building. First we needed to get everyone together and ready to go; that's the characters, creators AND readers (Countdown to Chaos), then to assess the problem/start trying to figure it out (everything until #272). #272 introduced the actual journey Sonic and friends will need to take...the first real solution to the crisis that is happening has just been discovered. Then of course the crossover happens (which could have been steering/derailing some the plot in the main book as well).
I've been with the book since the beginning, I'm 30 years old too. My rationale is that these things take time and I'm willing to see how it turns out. I'm willing to be patient because I have seen things that I really do like in this new continuity. But to me, 2 years is not enough to make an ultimate judgement.


My apologies, I did not mean that the content of the stories themselves were not rational. I was trying to say that the rationale of two years of time not being enough of a duration to establish a valid opinion was a fallacy. I can see why my comment confused you though. I should have worded that better. You can say that 2 years is still not long enough, and it would be your right to crique my thought process, but I don't want to confuse you about what I meant to say.
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Re: Smash badnik and again and again

Postby ChaosJam » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:43 pm

Astrobot7000 wrote:My apologies, I did not mean that the content of the stories themselves were not rational. I was trying to say that the rationale of two years of time not being enough of a duration to establish a valid opinion was a fallacy. I can see why my comment confused you though. I should have worded that better. You can say that 2 years is still not long enough, and it would be your right to crique my thought process, but I don't want to confuse you about what I meant to say.

No worries. I was a bit confused but I understand now. :D
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