Should Sonic target adults?

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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby Tedmeister » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:04 pm

We had a Sonic game geared towards an older audience. It was

Image

... oh.
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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby BlazeHeatnix » Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:32 pm

That wasn't targeted at adults. Maturity has nothing to do with guns and action.
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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby Striker » Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:56 pm

BlazeHeatnix wrote:That wasn't targeted at adults. Maturity has nothing to do with guns and action.

Tell that to any R rated film out there.

Shadow the Hedgehog is ironically the most adult game we ever got. There is no denying that. But that doesnt mean it was good. The more "adult" something gets the more likely I am to not like it. Not because it's adult but because it's usually dark, gritty, uninteresting, and poorly written. Man of Steel is a great example of this. You could say the same about any of the Nolan Batman films but where Man of Steel was poorly written the Nolan Batman films were actually well written.

The more I read this thread the more I see "I dont think it should be adult in the way most R rated films or M rated games are but i just want it to be better written."

Here's the thing. This is a new continuity it's going to take time for things to get to where you may enjoy it. Some of you may argue that 2 years is plenty of time but i say nay. 2 years is only 24 issues. 48 if we're counting Universe. That is a very small amount of comics to be able to set up a universe.

It took the original continuity at least that many to be able to establish anything and that was without a secondary comic running(Knuckles the Echidna non-withstanding as it started during Endgame). Sure there were mini-series and one shots but those never really added much to the continuity. It wasn't until the Super Specials came around that world building, and multiverse building, really got on a roll.

And honestly the past 2 years have been fun for me. Sure im not happy about the loss of the old continuity but with the way the new continuity is going I am more than happy to let that slide as im having fun reading the new continuity.
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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby WiNTER BELLS » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:14 pm

Striker wrote:Shadow the Hedgehog is ironically the most adult game we ever got. There is no denying that. But that doesnt mean it was good. The more "adult" something gets the more likely I am to not like it. Not because it's adult but because it's usually dark, gritty, uninteresting, and poorly written. Man of Steel is a great example of this. You could say the same about any of the Nolan Batman films but where Man of Steel was poorly written the Nolan Batman films were actually well written.

The more I read this thread the more I see "I dont think it should be adult in the way most R rated films or M rated games are but i just want it to be better written."

Here's the thing. This is a new continuity it's going to take time for things to get to where you may enjoy it. Some of you may argue that 2 years is plenty of time but i say nay. 2 years is only 24 issues. 48 if we're counting Universe. That is a very small amount of comics to be able to set up a universe.

I wouldn't call Shadow the Hedgehog so much "adult" as I would "juvenile". It was more marketed towards young teens than adults I feel.
But I think you're missing the point. The topic is asking if Sonic should target adults, not necessarily if it should change it's format. Adult focus can be anything from references that only the older audiences may get, to plots that would be more interesting for adults.

Also, I don't think anyone is saying anything about the current continuity here (correct me if I'm wrong, some posts were a bit "tl;dr" for me.). I, for one, am just giving my two cents on where I feel the focus should be. Like you, I'm trying to give this new continuity (Which has provided a wonderful balance in focusing on both kids and adults, might I add.) some time before I judge it too harshly...
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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby Azul » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:12 pm

That akward moment when there's already a post about this video.

BlazeHeatnix wrote:That wasn't targeted at adults. Maturity has nothing to do with guns and action.

Maturity is defined as having adult qualities.
Striker wrote:Tell that to any R rated film out there.
Stretching it. The presence of guns doesn't warrant an R rating. In that regard, it would be the level of violence presented. Regardless, movies can get R ratings for content entirely unrelated to violence.

Shadow the Hedgehog is ironically the most adult game we ever got.

Ironically? Well it was intended for an older audience. What's ironic is that it was nominated for Golden Joystick's Family Game of the Year award.
But that doesnt mean it was good. The more "adult" something gets the more likely I am to not like it. Not because it's adult but because it's usually dark, gritty, uninteresting, and poorly written. Man of Steel is a great example of this. You could say the same about any of the Nolan Batman films but where Man of Steel was poorly written the Nolan Batman films were actually well written.

This is all your opinion. You can't use opinions as justification for an argument. Also, adult doesn't equate to dark & gritty.

The more I read this thread the more I see "I dont think it should be adult in the way most R rated films or M rated games are but i just want it to be better written."


Kinda putting words into people's mouths but I get it. It doesn't have to be adult to be well written.
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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby Striker » Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:57 pm

Azul wrote:
Striker wrote:Tell that to any R rated film out there.
Stretching it. The presence of guns doesn't warrant an R rating. In that regard, it would be the level of violence presented. Regardless, movies can get R ratings for content entirely unrelated to violence.


Okay maybe not any but most R rated film out there usually has those in there. Honestly the rating system is mostly bunk now anyways I was just using it as an example.

Azul wrote:
Striker wrote:Shadow the Hedgehog is ironically the most adult game we ever got.

Ironically? Well it was intended for an older audience. What's ironic is that it was nominated for Golden Joystick's Family Game of the Year award.

Ironically may not have been the best choice of word to put there but it was the only thing I could think of at the time.

Azul wrote:
Striker wrote:But that doesnt mean it was good. The more "adult" something gets the more likely I am to not like it. Not because it's adult but because it's usually dark, gritty, uninteresting, and poorly written. Man of Steel is a great example of this. You could say the same about any of the Nolan Batman films but where Man of Steel was poorly written the Nolan Batman films were actually well written.

This is all your opinion. You can't use opinions as justification for an argument. Also, adult doesn't equate to dark & gritty.

Yeah... Try telling that to most of the internet. =/

Azul wrote:
Striker wrote:The more I read this thread the more I see "I dont think it should be adult in the way most R rated films or M rated games are but i just want it to be better written."


Kinda putting words into people's mouths but I get it. It doesn't have to be adult to be well written.

Honestly thats what this thread(and any others like it) reads to me. Im not trying to put words into others mouths or be mean. It's just what im taking away from all of this.
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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby Mordum » Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:33 pm

The thread equating "adult" with "mature" is what gets me. Adult works can, have, and will continue to be juvenile. Drawn Together is not for children, but prided itself on being juvenile shock value for its own sake to the point where the movie's entire philosophical point WAS that excess for its own sake was not inherently wrong. Human Centipede's entire deal, by Tom Six's design, is to get repeatedly more and more meaningless in its theme and purpose the more you drift from the first film. For every movie like Goodbye Uncle Tom or Faces of Death, moving and thoughtful exploitation films with legitimate social importance and points to make, there're countless shock films that exist JUST to disturb you with no real thematic context.

You can have thematically similar things with "heavy" subject matter appeal to different demographics. Look at Beast Machines and Caprica. Simon Furman is wrong, to me: Beast Machines is ABSOLUTELY appropriate and okay for children, and you can see why just by comparing it to another show dealing with the same themes that's actually aimed for an audience that isn't children. Optimus Primal and Zoe Greystone have vastly different contexts in how they're approached, despite both of them being well meaning but fundamentally flawed religious terrorists desperately trying to fight a holy war erupting from the synthesis of man and machine. The level of thoughtfulness in their premises is fairly immaterial despite them basically being about the same thing, it is entirely in what different implications they're actually allowed to explore. Beast Machines is a heavy, thoughtful show...for children. It doesn't stop me from loving both, but I don't exactly approach Beast Machines with "Ugh, finally, this show is treating me like I'm an ADULT!" as much as I'm approaching it from "Oh, neat, a show with themes I really like that expresses them through robot monkeys punching dragons in the face." I...have, and love, the adult version, for its adult reasons. I like the one for children for its child-oriented reasons.

I agree with Striker, which is weird because you think we wouldn't because of how vastly different our entertainment preferences are. I actually feel like Striker has the most reasoned position in this thread, even more than my own. I may not share his preferences or taste, but I can at least respect his viewpoint and how he presents it even though he arguably has the more childish tastes, by his own admission (not meant to be an insult, by the way. We're both posters on a Sonic board, we're both at least a LITTLE bit childish as heart. I certainly am.).

Striker wrote:The more I read this thread the more I see "I dont think it should be adult in the way most R rated films or M rated games are but i just want it to be better written."


And...he's not putting people's words in their mouths, Azul. He's right. This is absolutely what people in this thread want. It's not a quality judgment or saying they're wrong but it IS what they want. But every time someone brings up that there's not necessarily something mature about demanding more adult accessible writing but not wanting it outside of the realm of children's censorship, there's always someone telling this person (okay, basically telling me and Striker) that "ADULT ISN'T [stock thing]."

So, okay, adult ISN'T these various things. Fair enough. But why aren't they? Why is adult inherently mature if so much adult shlock exists? And I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm really not. But what is it about someone's particular taste that makes them feel the need to have work that talks to them like they're a grown up, but they also really feel the need to emphasize censorship and content standards as being vital and important to this mature work?

Genuine question. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I really want to know.
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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby Gonzo » Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:45 am

But what is it about someone's particular taste that makes them feel the need to have work that talks to them like they're a grown up, but they also really feel the need to emphasize censorship and content standards as being vital and important to this mature work?

Could be that too many works with excessive violence/gore/swearing/what have you are too busy with those things to bother with stuff like "actual depth" and tend to appeal more to middle schoolers with delusions of edginess.

Nobody wants garbage like Sonic.EXE, which desperately flails its arms and screams "I'M TOTALLY AN ADULT!" even though it thinks every day is Splatfest and the only available colours are shades of red. All the paint blood in the world ain't gonna hide how shallow and uninteresting EXE is, and it's all the more pathetic for thinking that it could.

Willingly reigning the violence/gore/etc. and saving it for important moments (in works where those things aren't the whole point, that is) is seen as more mature than not doing so. Or at the very least, cuts down on the risk of inducing bathos (see again: Sonic.EXE).

I feel like I might be repeating points that others have brought up already, but that's what I think is being said here. tl;dr splatter responsibly.
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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby Mordum » Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:46 pm

Legit had no idea Sonic.EXE was meant to be serious until I read this post.

Still that's...kind of an extreme example. Of course a horror story done by Sonic fanboys is going to be terrible: their entire perspective of seriousness is probably creepypasta memes. I don't think it's the best example to use in this conversation. It makes your point, but only in the sense that an idiot doing anything somewhere will prove SOMEONE'S point by technicality.
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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby Gonzo » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:55 pm

Eh, maybe; it was one of the first examples to come to mind, and was relevant to Sonic (in the same way that "Cupcakes" was relevant to MLP:FiM, I guess).

Hm...in general, a lot of titles published by Image and similar companies during the Dark Age of Comic Books had, among other problems, a tendency to equate ultraviolence with maturity (nowhere near Sonic.EXE's level of excess. Usually). Avatar Press, from what little I know of them, tended to be a bad offender.
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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby Mordum » Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:38 am

Yeah, but the thing about that is...

None of this ever goes into what the motives for the ultraviolence could be. The assumption is ALWAYS "Oh, we're trying to be mature but don't understand why." Which is true some of the time, I'm sure, but you'd really equate Cupcakes with that? That's pure exploitation. Shock. Nobody made that with the illusion of maturity. It was made for the same reason its most famous counterpart, Agony in Pink (Power Rangers fic), was made: raw shock, horror, and gruesome content for its own sake. Nobody involved in these things wanted to be "deep."

SPOILERS FOR GROWN UP TALK I GUESS

Spoiler: show
And thing is? Some people do this TO be deep and personal, and their efforts shouldn't be considered shallow or inherently hollow just because of its content or because cartoon fanfic or comic books are bad at it. The Bunny Game is Rodleen Gestic putting herself through real, actual torture and abuse on camera as a way of therapeutically purging herself of the ACTUAL abusive encounters she'd had with men. When people told her how inappropriate her movie was, she told them to burn their DVDs and shut up. Rightfully so. Slow Torture Puke Chamber is a fetishistic whirlwind depicting one woman's vomit-fueled journey through @#$%...that also happens to be directly based and drawn from her real experiences with bulimia and childhood sexual abuse from her father.

There're countless examples of this stuff done with real artistry that HAD to be done with the level of content they have, and it REALLY bothers that people will immediately perceive certain types of content as INHERENTLY shallow. Stuff like this is often done because of the fact it's the only way some artists feel is appropriate to express their worldview. The fact that people don't want to shelter you or clean themselves up when making their art is a GOOD thing.


And I know that, being a Sonic board, that stuff in the spoiler isn't necessarily in the interests of the board's general userbase, and that's completely fine...but that's also kind of the point. Part of being an adult means making discerning, specific choices about what you wish to consume as a communicator or consumer. It means addressing a piece of art on your terms, not be bound by the terms of one's art. Again, Caprica versus Beast Machines. Two shows of similar theme, with even similar central protagonists, but Optimus Primal and Zoe Greystone's religious terrorism are portrayed in two distinct ways. Optimus is those concepts distilled and reinterpreted in a way appropriate to introduce them to a child. Zoe is assuming you, as an adult, are familiar with those concepts and explores them in a way it expects you to be able to handle. The former teaches, the latter explores.

Both are great shows. I love them both. But I don't want Beast Machines to be Caprica. I don't WANT Beast Machines to be adult, because the appeal comes from seeing how it perceives itself as an introduction to those concepts. Calling Beast Machines adult is a disservice to what it's meant to accomplish. It is not for me. The fact I happen to like it is immaterial.

Sonic shouldn't be adjusted to be better taken in by its adult fanbase. It certainly COULD be: Afterlife With Archie proves that sort of thing can be done with elegance, and again, Sonic For Adults would probably be something resembling and/or heavily homaging Animal Farm. But it SHOULDN'T be for the simple reason that being an adult means things do not adjust for you (save for extreme societal cases like prejudice, breaches of civil rights, etc. but we're strictly talking media, here). An adult is an adult: someone who has the power and agency to decide what they can or cannot consume. That doesn't mean a Sonic comic can't be criticized, or disliked, or whatever; analysis is perfectly appropriate and there's nothing wrong with assessing a story for ANY age group based on whether or not it accomplishes its goal. But it DOES mean that wanting a comic not intended for your age group to be more accessible to your age group is, inherently, not an adult instinct. I know I'm going to be called a meanie for this, but it is the instinct of a child. That is not INTENDED to insult anyone, though I certainly can't stop them from taking it as such, but that is what it is.

I, as an adult, make the conscious choice to consume Sonic the Hedgehog as it currently exists. I do not need it to be adjusted or written differently because I happen to be in the audience. I like Ian Flynn's writing, I like the source material from which it draws from, and I enjoy the art as some of the best, cartoony art in comics. That is all that I need. I do not need it to adjust for me, or to have it written differently so that I may enjoy it more, because that is not something an adult needs to wish. I can just find something else. Again, Bone exists. Jeff Smith pretty much mastered the all ages funny animal high fantasy while Sonic spent years being really bad at it. To demand Sonic improve as the only real option is to deprive oneself of what they want being done somewhere else. Sonic, flaws and strengths, warts and all, is what I am here to read. And I read it because its specific combination of traits and concepts are unique to it, and that includes its strengths AND weaknesses.

The reason I bring up non-kidvid related adult content, though, is because it's a context that's routinely ignored. Part of that ignoring is rational: when discussing all ages adventure fiction, it makes sense to discuss older aiming/adult content in the context of updated versions of that all ages fiction given those adult concepts. But it has a reverse side effect that I think needs to be addressed, which you can see above: obstinate, matter of fact statements that "such and such do not equal mature" without much context beyond the statements themselves. It's TECHNICAL accuracy, in the sense that they're not technically wrong, but lacking in very important, fundamental context because they only do approach it from one context.

And...that's wrong. Their opinions aren't wrong, but the method certainly is. If you ONLY see adult content through the prism of it bulking up all ages fiction to something it isn't, then you just aren't perceiving that correctly. You're not perceiving it relevantly. Afterlife With Archie essentially proves you wrong, if we stick internal to Archie, because it provides a deeper context for its characters and stories uniquely possible via its adult content AND has legitimate, high quality writing (gorgeous art, too). If your ONLY perception of adult or dark content is the fact it's used to doll up all ages fiction, you're not dismissing surface level grim and grit for its lack of maturity: you're dismissing it because it's a threat to your hugbox. There is no adult reason to wish your choice of kid's fiction was better written for your age group, but still somehow possessing all the censorship and restrictions that are appropriate for children. Wish it had better writing, sure (even if the standards for that are ALWAYS shaky and debatable for things like this), fine. But want it to be better written just so YOU can keep reading it? No.

Striker has the right idea. I agree with him the most, despite us having near complete opposite tastes in entertainment save for our love of GOTTA GO FAST. I agree with how he presents himself: he says he doesn't like content generally labeled as adult, and by proxy simply prefers entertainment designed with children in mind. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I love a bunch of kid's shows and stories. I like Striker's position because he's not trying to make something out to more than it is, or demanding it adjust so it fits him better.

To insist higher levels of content AREN'T adult just because some people use them for shlock, and completely ignoring the actual artistic applications they've had, seems less about maturely preserving something one likes and seems more about not wanting your hugbox to be invaded. There're valid reasons for preferring one demographic over the other, but insisting one has no artistic or adult merit as a knee jerk response to preserving notions of mature and adult taste doesn't...really feel like an adult response.

And again, none of this is directly meant to be insulting. If I'm full of crap, feel free to explain to me why. But I don't really think I am.
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Re: Should Sonic target adults?

Postby Striker » Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:05 am

I... er... umm... no I think you summed it up pretty well.
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