Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Forum devoted to Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Universe and the entire Sonic line by Archie Comics.

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Azul » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:00 pm

ReifuTD wrote:So, does this mean we are literally "This Side of Mobius"?


*slowly claps* You sir, have won the internet.

Back on topic, what is it with companies hiring people that know nothing about their product? The president of 4kids stated he didn't know anything about Sonic and never played the games or read any of the comics. If the fandom knows more about the series than the people who created it, you've failed as a creator.
User avatar
Azul
BumbleKnight
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:43 pm
Location: Somewhere, USA

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby ReifuTD » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:37 pm

Azul wrote:
ReifuTD wrote:So, does this mean we are literally "This Side of Mobius"?


*slowly claps* You sir, have won the internet.

Back on topic, what is it with companies hiring people that know nothing about their product? The president of 4kids stated he didn't know anything about Sonic and never played the games or read any of the comics. If the fandom knows more about the series than the people who created it, you've failed as a creator.


I don't believe 4kids had anything to with making Sonic X, That said they at least translated the show into English, wrote scripts based off that translation and recorded voices.
User avatar
ReifuTD
BumbleCult
 
Posts: 5964
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:29 pm

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Azul » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:56 pm

ReifuTD wrote:
Azul wrote:
ReifuTD wrote:So, does this mean we are literally "This Side of Mobius"?


*slowly claps* You sir, have won the internet.

Back on topic, what is it with companies hiring people that know nothing about their product? The president of 4kids stated he didn't know anything about Sonic and never played the games or read any of the comics. If the fandom knows more about the series than the people who created it, you've failed as a creator.


I don't believe 4kids had anything to with making Sonic X, That said they at least translated the show into English, wrote scripts based off that translation and recorded voices.


I didn't say that 4kids assisted in production of Sonic X. My point was that if you're going to work with a fictional construct, or anything really, you should know something about it. Matter of fact, a lot was done to the English script. Its practically another series.
User avatar
Azul
BumbleKnight
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:43 pm
Location: Somewhere, USA

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Matt7325 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:13 pm

It's entirely possible the president of Archie has never played the games or seen any of the cartoons.
User avatar
Matt7325
BumbleKnight
 
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:17 am

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Penguin God » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:19 am

Azul wrote:Back on topic, what is it with companies hiring people that know nothing about their product?

Iizuka's been working on Sonic since Sonic 3. It's practically impossible for him to not know what he's talking about with Sonic.
User avatar
Penguin God
BumbleCult
 
Posts: 8406
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:28 pm

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Mordum » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:08 am

Azul wrote:Back on topic, what is it with companies hiring people that know nothing about their product? The president of 4kids stated he didn't know anything about Sonic and never played the games or read any of the comics. If the fandom knows more about the series than the people who created it, you've failed as a creator.


4Kids knew everything they had to know about their product, considering it was a show they translated.

Explain to me why someone working at 4Kids would have to know anything more about Sonic than what was presented in Sonic X.
User avatar
Mordum
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:58 am

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Mikail » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:02 am

Mordum wrote:
Azul wrote:Back on topic, what is it with companies hiring people that know nothing about their product? The president of 4kids stated he didn't know anything about Sonic and never played the games or read any of the comics. If the fandom knows more about the series than the people who created it, you've failed as a creator.


4Kids knew everything they had to know about their product, considering it was a show they translated.

Explain to me why someone working at 4Kids would have to know anything more about Sonic than what was presented in Sonic X.


Well, Sonic X was a bad example, but the point still stands. When you hire people to work on a franchise with little to no knowledge or concern about the product, the quality is kind of a dice toss. The dark ages of the comics are a good example of this.
User avatar
Mikail
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1876
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:42 am
Location: Babylon 5

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Mordum » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:18 am

If you're working on localizing a foreign product for a domestic audience, regardless of the countries involved, the only thing you're obligated to know about is the product you're translating.

If you're translating Sonic or Pokemon or whatever, you don't need to know about anything other than the show you're translating. Azul mentions "a lot was done with the English script" which...seems to indicate to me he doesn't really know how translating works. They HAVE the script to adapt and localize. If they choose to change it for whatever reason, that doesn't really mean they were ignorant of the product: it means they had certain orders from their bosses and adapted the show based on those orders. It's not like someone could've played Sonic Adventure 2 and realized OH WAIT, I SHOULDN'T DO THIS. It's likely they would've just done the same thing they would've done anyway. What more do they need to know about a show when they have the script?

Intentional changes are not the same as weaknesses being born out of ignorance.

As far as the comics argument, I think you're just being arbitrary. I've seen comics turn out horrible BECAUSE the people involved cared TOO MUCH about the source franchises (Boom's Hellraiser, just for starts). Beast Wars is still regarded as one of the best Transformers shows of all time and, really, Larry DiTillio and Bob Forward didn't care about Transformers as a brand by their own admission. This notion that someone working on one of these brands has to have some level of passion for them, when most of them are throwaways clung to by nostalgics, is rather silly.
User avatar
Mordum
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:58 am

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:28 pm

You know this makes me think of how Palpatine was apparently portrayed in the Star Wars Expanded Universe. (Full disclosure I haven't read really any EU stuff this is going off what I've heard) People would write all these things like "He had super powerful psychic Force abilities and knew how everything would turn out" "His Force Ghost was so powerful he could possess a clone body" and "His connection to the Force was so great he could create black holes that could destroy the universe".

Fan's writing Expanded Universe material or alternate adaptation is a two way street. For everyone who's more interested in telling a story there's more who'd rather shill characters and completely alter characters to fit the plots they want to tell.

Being a fan with an encyclopedic knowledge doesn't make you instantly the best choice to write something based on it. Like for example RTD and Doctor Who. There were some good stories in his run (Midnight is my jam) and I do respect him for reviving the series but more often than not his plots were convoluted and got lost in trying to out "Epic" themselves. Also he inflicted David Tennant whining about becoming Matt Smith on us until a better writer made that make some amount of sense.
User avatar
SonicBlueRanger
BumbleChosen
 
Posts: 12370
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 9:12 pm
Location: Angel Grove, CA

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Azul » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:30 pm

Mordum wrote:If you're working on localizing a foreign product for a domestic audience, regardless of the countries involved, the only thing you're obligated to know about is the product you're translating.

If you're translating Sonic or Pokemon or whatever, you don't need to know about anything other than the show you're translating. Azul mentions "a lot was done with the English script" which...seems to indicate to me he doesn't really know how translating works. They HAVE the script to adapt and localize. If they choose to change it for whatever reason, that doesn't really mean they were ignorant of the product: it means they had certain orders from their bosses and adapted the show based on those orders. It's not like someone could've played Sonic Adventure 2 and realized OH WAIT, I SHOULDN'T DO THIS. It's likely they would've just done the same thing they would've done anyway. What more do they need to know about a show when they have the script?

Intentional changes are not the same as weaknesses being born out of ignorance.
Mordum wrote:
Azul wrote:Back on topic, what is it with companies hiring people that know nothing about their product? The president of 4kids stated he didn't know anything about Sonic and never played the games or read any of the comics. If the fandom knows more about the series than the people who created it, you've failed as a creator.


4Kids knew everything they had to know about their product, considering it was a show they translated.

Explain to me why someone working at 4Kids would have to know anything more about Sonic than what was presented in Sonic X.


Translation and localization isn't a hard idea to process. My issue with 4Kids ignorance of anything Sonic related is how they rewrote it. Yes, they had a script to work with but the 4Kids dub isn't a hard translation. Sentences, entire scenes, and even facial expressions were altered. This is in part to cultural dissonance. What's kid friendly in Japan is far from what's kid friendly in USA. Even signs that have English text were removed or blurred out altogether but I digress. I understand that Sonic and co. weren't allowed to curse or talk about S&M but somethings, including the themes and bits of dialogue were changed entirely. Judging everything entirely by dialogue, they made some characters more stereotypical to hero and anti villain archetypes in the cases of Sonic and Shadow and everyone took a level in niceness that, I feel, comes off as a condescending notion that children can't handle a few guns or wince at hearing anything related to death. The Sonic games had a more all ages appeal while Sonic X was stuck in second grade, not that I dislike the show for that but since I was a kid, I found it particularly annoying that some child programming felt the need to wrap everything in glitter and bells before handing it to viewers.

I feel that if there's source material, you should use it. This is the same reason I dislike the 90s Sonic cartoons and Fleetway. They deviate so far to what's been established in the games and add in so much gimmicks and other junk that I don't care for, I instantly knew that I wasn't looking at the Sonic I appreciate. I love Sonic X. Its the first Sonic show I've seen. But I'm not blind to its flaws. It may be a stretch to say that the show would have been much better in quality if anyone at 4Kids knew a lick about what's happened in the games but that's just how I feel as someone who played the games first. I think the 4Kids dub ended the way it did in due part because they meant to appeal to younger viewers and not to long time fans. The only thing the long time fans got was another Sonic show albeit perverted for an innocent audience.
User avatar
Azul
BumbleKnight
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:43 pm
Location: Somewhere, USA

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Mr.Unsmiley » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:38 pm

SonicBlueRanger wrote:Being a fan with an encyclopedic knowledge doesn't make you instantly the best choice to write something based on it. Like for example RTD and Doctor Who. There were some good stories in his run (Midnight is my jam) and I do respect him for reviving the series but more often than not his plots were convoluted and got lost in trying to out "Epic" themselves. Also he inflicted David Tennant whining about becoming Matt Smith on us until a better writer made that make some amount of sense.


RTD's run was actually enjoyable though, Moffat makes me want to delete all british media
User avatar
Mr.Unsmiley
BumbleKnight
 
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:20 pm
Location: North Charleston, SC

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Mordum » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:40 pm

Azul wrote:My issue with 4Kids ignorance of anything Sonic related is how they rewrote it. Yes, they had a script to work with but the 4Kids dub isn't a hard translation. Sentences, entire scenes, and even facial expressions were altered. This is in part to cultural dissonance. What's kid friendly in Japan is far from what's kid friendly in USA. Even signs that have English text were removed or blurred out altogether but I digress. I understand that Sonic and co. weren't allowed to curse or talk about S&M but somethings, including the themes and bits of dialogue were changed entirely. Judging everything entirely by dialogue, they made some characters more stereotypical to hero and anti villain archetypes in the cases of Sonic and Shadow and everyone took a level in niceness that, I feel, comes off as a condescending notion that children can't handle a few guns or wince at hearing anything related to death. The Sonic games had a more all ages appeal while Sonic X was stuck in second grade, not that I dislike the show for that but since I was a kid, I found it particularly annoying that some child programming felt the need to wrap everything in glitter and bells before handing it to viewers.


See, you're explaining these things to me as if I didn't know this beforehand, but let me reiterate:

A Handsome Man wrote:Intentional changes are not the same as weaknesses being born out of ignorance.


That's my argument. That when someone makes a change to a foreign product, it is not a change that's done due to a massive weakness resulting from ignorance, but rather an intentional change to the material. You may not LIKE those changes, you may not agree with them philosophically, that's fine. That's not what I'm arguing.

My argument is that the changes 4Kids made to Sonic X are not changes that rely on whether or not they're familiar with the franchises which...is true. It doesn't matter if they know about the games before hand. They still have to contend with the same Standards and Practices executives, the same corporate culture, etc. It is completely irrelevant. Your argument of "their ignorance of the source material equates to them dumbing down material" has NO linear continuity whatsoever. If Sonic X got the same general treatment as stuff like Shaman King, One Piece, Yu-Gi-Oh!, et al., then why does Sonic having some wider franchise factor in any way whatsoever?

(It doesn't.)

You perceive this problem (the shoddy localization of the cartoon), which is a valid opinion to hold even if I don't agree (or more accurately, don't care) and when you see SOMETHING about the culture behind the creatives themselves you don't like ("I've never played the Sonic games"), you assume correlation between the two. It's really not the case. Everything they NEED to know is within the show itself, because the show is a stand alone product with its own perspective, context, and take on the material. It is, in of itself, an adaptation with its own changes, perspective, and context. If they're changing something, it's not because they don't know something about the material. The material is right there. They're changing the material because of a wide variety of corporate and creative influences that do not boil down to some single factor. And even if it DID, it isn't "they didn't know enough about Sonic."

I feel that if there's source material, you should use it. This is the same reason I dislike the 90s Sonic cartoons and Fleetway. They deviate so far to what's been established in the games and add in so much gimmicks and other junk that I don't care for, I instantly knew that I wasn't looking at the Sonic I appreciate.


I...I don't know what to tell you, dude. Those things you dislike for showing supposed infidelity toward the source material...didn't HAVE much source material to work with. It's not like they could've pulled from the Adventure games. Ben Hurst even noted that his introduction to the franchise came with gameplay footage AND a story bible. Even before going really hard and commissioning creatives, Sega was trying to adapt and extrapolate the gameplay elements into something resembling a narrative. Those 90's shows ultimately DO come from Sega's then-present understanding of the video game's mythology.

There's something ridiculous about insisting 4Kids's perceived flaws in translating would be covered by them learning more about Sonic, when a lot of what you dislike about 90's Sonic cartoons is directly derived from information fed to its creatives by Sega themselves.

Take your own advice, maybe.

I love Sonic X. Its the first Sonic show I've seen. But I'm not blind to its flaws. It may be a stretch to say that the show would have been much better in quality if anyone at 4Kids knew a lick about what's happened in the games but that's just how I feel as someone who played the games first. I think the 4Kids dub ended the way it did in due part because they meant to appeal to younger viewers and not to long time fans. The only thing the long time fans got was another Sonic show albeit perverted for an innocent audience.


Yet through all this you've never really explained what knowing about the games would...actually do. What advantage it'd give them. What, they play Adventure and see the exact same stories they're translating anyway? They'd still have to do all the things you don't like.

If you dislike Sonic media for deviating from what you perceive as the core of the source material, but Sonic X represents the core of the source material (or at least, enough of it that you can enjoy it)...yet not enough of that core to be able to be accurately translated on its own merits? Do you see where your perspective falls apart faster than a house of cards? How is something so insufficiently made that it can't even REPRESENT AN ACCURATE VERSION OF ITSELF, yet is still good enough for a purist like you to like it? How does anything about your perspective make even the slightest bit of sense?

SonicBlueRanger wrote:Being a fan with an encyclopedic knowledge doesn't make you instantly the best choice to write something based on it. Like for example RTD and Doctor Who. There were some good stories in his run (Midnight is my jam) and I do respect him for reviving the series but more often than not his plots were convoluted and got lost in trying to out "Epic" themselves. Also he inflicted David Tennant whining about becoming Matt Smith on us until a better writer made that make some amount of sense.


I don't think being a fan is Russel T. Davies's problem. As far as I'm concerned, Who under Davies's run suffered from some really painful juxtaposition between trying to be Classic Who and being a young adult novel.

If you look at the average Davies-era episode versus, say, The Ark in Space or some other especially classic serial, there's not a HUGE world of difference between them for the most part. There's just one big difference where it matters: Davies Who is very specifically an American take on the franchise. The entire thing is a really big remake of the Fox movie, except with anything resembling what DID make the Fox movie work. The romantic with two hearts is a powerful idea for a YA lead, but when you compare Grace with Rose or Martha, it becomes evident very quickly that the writing leans far too the escapism at the core of Doctor Who's premise in a way that becomes really irritating. Rose running off with Metacrisis Ten, and both she and Martha having the same general fate of becoming cold, distant bad@#$ on the periphery of the series's mythology anyway.

The idea Grace would REFUSE the Doctor at the end of the Fox movie is absurd given what would follow, but the Fox movie was pretty good at balancing its clearly pandering premise with more intelligence and, pun intended, grace. It's not that the Doctor is really asexual: Susan existed, after all, and is one of my favorite companions. But the Doctor's iconic asexuality came more out of circumstance than anything else. He was the mentor rather than the love interest because he HAD to be due to the consistent age of those being cast.

But if you change that dynamic without...actually changing how you're telling the stories, there's a giant problem. Classical feeling Doctor Who stories, but with a much smaller age gap between the Doctor and companion, just feels wrong. Like it doesn't make sense. And I STARTED on Davies Who. But I'd never gotten what people liked so much about what just came off to me as Sci-Fi Twilight (which, come on. It is.) When I saw the Classic show, though, I immediately understood: these stories were better without the age gap. Davies told the same type of stories while drastically altering the character dynamic. So I like Doctor Who NOW, but Davies was certainly not a factor in why.

And yeah, I prefer Moffat too, if we're talking modern Who showrunners (though the best one, in terms of fidelity to the source material, is probably Phil Ford. Sarah Jane Adventures really is JUST the classic show with different characters and...huh, written by someone who isn't a superfan. Funny.). Moffat's use of the babyface Doctor actually DOES come with a dramatic reinvention of the character dynamics. He's not just plugging a younger guy into a format clearly designed only for an older dude and a snarky lady he can casually show an apocalypse to. The Younger, Babyface Doctor as the disappointing imaginary friend who's incredibly codependent toward incredibly broken people whose imaginations seem to tolerate him more than anything else isn't necessarily a linear progression from the Classic show, but it nonetheless feels like a more interesting interpretation than what we'd gotten previously. It's very much an INTERPRETATION of Doctor Who's premise, rather than an evolution, the sort of premise you'd give to a direct reboot of the franchise rather than just a continuation of it but...it works. I like it a lot. It's genuinely interesting. A big reinterpretation befitting a reboot that happens to be set in the same continuity as the stuff it reinterprets is kind of weird in the grand scheme of things, but as its own material is incredibly engaging.

And the Capaldi stuff is great too, but for different reasons since it is a bit of a different story.

I still kinda wish we'd gotten a revival based around Scream of the Shalka, though, or at least some more side fiction on it. He'll always be my Doctor.
User avatar
Mordum
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:58 am

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Matt7325 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:39 pm

Mordum wrote:Davies Who is very specifically an American take on the franchise.


Yes. I imagine you're aware of this already, but Buffy essentially served as the DNA for the Who reboot - Davies wanted to make a show that straddled between the matter of Classic Who and the sensibility and tone of Buffy. I'd like to think it worked most of the time (although these are two of my favourite shows so I'll happily admit bias), but there's no doubt it was clunky sometimes. We're looking at this from the perspective of mid 2015 though, I feel like the TV landscape was much more sophomoric and romantic back then.

Completely agree RE: the exploration of Matt Smith as a broken man, by the way. My favourite thing about Moffatt is how he manages to balance characterization that's simple enough for 6-year olds to understand and enjoy but has enough depth for adults who want to read more into it.

#sonic
User avatar
Matt7325
BumbleKnight
 
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:17 am

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Mordum » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:16 pm

We'll have to agree to disagree on it working well enough at the time, as I never quite understood it (I have a few episodes of it I really love, though).

And yeah, I'd heard the Buffy stuff (and Torchwood basically being Excalibur repurposed into sci-fi Angel). I love Buffy, love Whedon. But I do wonder how effective that DNA was integrated into the show.

It DID become a break out success, so what the @#$% do I know?
User avatar
Mordum
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:58 am

Re: Aaron Weber confirms Izuka's "Two Worlds"

Postby Azul » Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:28 am

Mordum wrote:(or more accurately, don't care)


Oh. In that case, I'll just end the conversation right here. I have not intention of entertaining this any further if my thoughts aren't worth the consideration. Good day.
User avatar
Azul
BumbleKnight
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:43 pm
Location: Somewhere, USA

PreviousNext

Return to This Side of Mobius



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron