Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

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Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Fri May 01, 2015 5:41 am

Ok, I wasn't on this forum that long, so maaaybe someone pointed that out already, but while researching Mogul's history I noticed something very strange.

First let's sum the fact: We know that one of FF turned 'traitor' which lead to their destruction. We know it happened during the time comics got rebooted and we learned that Sally was the traitor. All of this would happened if Silver didn't intervened.

Well, explain me this:
Take your Sonic the Hedgehog 215 and open on "Future Tense". On the very first page there is a Painting with Freedom Fighter. NEW Freedom Fighters. There are children of Tails, children of Antoine & Bunnie and most importantly SONIA and MANIC, children of Sally and Sonic.

The idea that XYL future is similar to Prime future isn't that weird. However, how to explain that Mecha Sally who "destroyed Freedom Fighters" can have children that will form new FF? Especially if you look at issue 247, where it looks like she was about to kill Sonic, if not for Silver.

What do you think? Did Ian shoot himself on a foot or there is a much bigger plan that we didn't even considered?
Last edited by MetalSkulkBane on Fri May 01, 2015 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby Mavrickindigo » Fri May 01, 2015 6:09 am

The future might have forgotten who they were.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby DoNotDelete » Fri May 01, 2015 6:30 am

IIRC Penders has somehow wrangled ownership of the whole 'Mobius 30 Years Later' concept type-thing. Meaning Archie/Ian can't use it.

However, IIRC, Penders has also gotten Archie to say that 'Mobius 30 Years Later' is still part of the official Archie timeline... which is whereabouts my brain starts making strange noises and I want to throw the computer straight out the window.

Sometimes it's just easier to forget about everything pre-Penders Wave (i.e. Mammoth Mogul and the 'Mobius 30 Years Later' offspring) and just roll with the current universe as is. Is it sad that the Penders Echidnas aren't around anymore? Perhaps. That universe had its time and we're in different territory now. I'm actually liking this new universe and where it's going.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Fri May 01, 2015 8:06 am

DoNotDelete wrote:IIRC Penders has somehow wrangled ownership of the whole 'Mobius 30 Years Later' concept type-thing. Meaning Archie/Ian can't use it.

However, IIRC, Penders has also gotten Archie to say that 'Mobius 30 Years Later' is still part of the official Archie timeline... which is whereabouts my brain starts making strange noises and I want to throw the computer straight out the window.

Sometimes it's just easier to forget about everything pre-Penders Wave (i.e. Mammoth Mogul and the 'Mobius 30 Years Later' offspring) and just roll with the current universe as is. Is it sad that the Penders Echidnas aren't around anymore? Perhaps. That universe had its time and we're in different territory now. I'm actually liking this new universe and where it's going.


I'm not talking about connection between reboot/Penders stuff and Silver future.

I'm asking how it that possible that Sonic and Sally could have children if Mecha Sally was a traitor who caused end of the world?
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby OncleSam » Fri May 01, 2015 8:45 am

Well if you take into account the fact that someone from the future being in the present CHANGES the events ... Like **forgetmypoorchoice** Dragon Ball Z where just the FACT that Trunks appeared in the present changed everything. So maybe the FACT that Silver got tangled in the present changed the course of everything.

Spoiler: show
Maybe Mecha Sally's actions did in fact " destroy " the team, but that doesn't mean that she in any case manages to kill Sonic. They obviously found another way to deal with her robot form and that leads to the events of M30YL ( and the kids and stuff ).

It's like in the Marvel Comics, how many times was a team or organisation " destroyed " by the action of people inside, but that doesn't always mean that everyone has to die.

I'm betting more my money on the fact that King Shadow unleashing Perfect Tikhaos and all the stuff in the underground chambers ( I guess ) destroyed Silver's future.

But then again, new continuity, new world, new rules. Don't read too much into it.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby Mavrickindigo » Fri May 01, 2015 9:01 am

OncleSam wrote:Well if you take into account the fact that someone from the future being in the present CHANGES the events ... Like **forgetmypoorchoice** Dragon Ball Z where just the FACT that Trunks appeared in the present changed everything. So maybe the FACT that Silver got tangled in the present changed the course of everything.

Spoiler: show
Maybe Mecha Sally's actions did in fact " destroy " the team, but that doesn't mean that she in any case manages to kill Sonic. They obviously found another way to deal with her robot form and that leads to the events of M30YL ( and the kids and stuff ).

It's like in the Marvel Comics, how many times was a team or organisation " destroyed " by the action of people inside, but that doesn't always mean that everyone has to die.

I'm betting more my money on the fact that King Shadow unleashing Perfect Tikhaos and all the stuff in the underground chambers ( I guess ) destroyed Silver's future.

But then again, new continuity, new world, new rules. Don't read too much into it.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Cell going back in time that changed everything. By the time Trunks got there, Cell had been in the past for years, and his butterfly effect would have affected Gero's creation of the Androids.

OF course, it was an alternate Future Trunks who went to an alternate past who helped defeat THOSE androids that allowed Cell to travel into the past in the first place.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby OncleSam » Fri May 01, 2015 9:04 am

Right !! I completely forgot about that. But my point was that the fact that SOMEONE came in the past disrupted the chain of events. I still make my case :p But thank you for correcting me, I tend to forget these little details ^^
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby Mordum » Fri May 01, 2015 9:10 am

Mavrickindigo wrote:OF course, it was an alternate Future Trunks who went to an alternate past who helped defeat THOSE androids that allowed Cell to travel into the past in the first place.


If only Trunks just went and killed Gero himself like a reasonable human being.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby apprentice manta » Fri May 01, 2015 9:16 am

1. There are ways for Sonia & Manic to be borne that don't require Sally to be pregnant. Example: Surrogate mother, in vitro fertilization (Sally + Sonic's genetic material implanted in the surrogate.) I'm really sorry if I didn't phrase that well. IVF is also a possible way to explain Jacques + Belle if Bunnie or Antoine had troubling conceiving.

2. The kids could be clones/experiments, similar to how Prof. Gerald created Shadow from a mix of hedgehog + alien DNA.

3. They might not be organic, but instead be very realistic looking AIs (like NICOLE). They could also be robots built from scratch (or grounder or coconuts). We can't tell from one little photograph whether all the new FFs were organic or not.

4. Sally could still be their biological mom, but also spent some time as Mecha Sally. There's a big time gap between Mecha Sally causing havoc & Sonic becoming king, Sonia & Manic growing up to be FFs. Sally as a Robot could have forced the original FF to disband, damaged the ecosystem, helped Eggman gain control of more territory, yadda yadda, been branded a traitor by history books even while Sonic looked for a way to reverse the robotization process.

Sally could then be restored to organics, Sonic forgive her (but some citizens or historians still distrust Sally somewhat). Years pass, Sonic & Sally marry, they re-unite divided factions on Mobius, have children, yadda yadda, Silver's finds old books in library, goes to investigate...

5. Terminator-ish time loop. (The Kyle Reese/John Connor problem.) Sonia & Manic didn't exist in Timeline A. But Silver (TImeline B) traveled to the past (potential point where A & B diverge), changed some events so circumstances leading up to Sonia & Manic being born in BOTH Timeline A & Timeline B. There's still differences between Timeline A & Timeline B, but Sonia/Manic being in new FFs is no longer one of those differences.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby OncleSam » Fri May 01, 2015 9:18 am

apprentice manta wrote:1. There are ways for Sonia & Manic to be borne that don't require Sally to be pregnant. Example: Surrogate mother, in vitro fertilization (Sally + Sonic's genetic material implanted in the surrogate.) I'm really sorry if I didn't phrase that well. IVF is also a possible way to explain Jacques + Belle if Bunnie or Antoine had troubling conceiving.

2. The kids could be clones/experiments, similar to how Prof. Gerald created Shadow from a mix of hedgehog + alien DNA.

3. They might not be organic, but instead be very realistic looking AIs (like NICOLE). They could also be robots built from scratch (or grounder or coconuts). We can't tell from one little photograph whether all the new FFs were organic or not.

4. Sally could still be their biological mom, but also spent some time as Mecha Sally. There's a big time gap between Mecha Sally causing havoc & Sonic becoming king, Sonia & Manic growing up to be FFs. Sally as a Robot could have forced the original FF to disband, damaged the ecosystem, helped Eggman gain control of more territory, yadda yadda, been branded a traitor by history books even while Sonic looked for a way to reverse the robotization process.

Sally could then be restored to organics, Sonic forgive her (but some citizens or historians still distrust Sally somewhat). Years pass, Sonic & Sally marry, they re-unite divided factions on Mobius, have children, yadda yadda, Silver's finds old books in library, goes to investigate...

5. Terminator-ish time loop. (The Kyle Reese/John Connor problem.) Sonia & Manic didn't exist in Timeline A. But Silver (TImeline B) traveled to the past (potential point where A & B diverge), changed some events so circumstances leading up to Sonia & Manic being born in BOTH Timeline A & Timeline B. There's still differences between Timeline A & Timeline B, but Sonia/Manic being in new FFs is no longer one of those differences.



Ow, my brain just popped out of my skull.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby Mavrickindigo » Fri May 01, 2015 9:21 am

Mordum wrote:
Mavrickindigo wrote:OF course, it was an alternate Future Trunks who went to an alternate past who helped defeat THOSE androids that allowed Cell to travel into the past in the first place.


If only Trunks just went and killed Gero himself like a reasonable human being.

There's the whole "you can't kill hitler" time problem with that. Gero worked for a secret evil military and didn't even show up in Dragon Ball, then he became reclusive and lived in the mountains somewhere.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby Meliden » Fri May 01, 2015 9:23 am

Has anyone else mentioned that it was only a potential future and therefore could have been disconnected from the comic timeline at any time? Mecha Sally didn't necessarily have to be part of that timeline, it'd be one alteration to the future which made it different to M:30YL.

Heck, I'd argue Shadow's entire run in the present time would be more volatile to knocking time off course to a different future than Mecha Sally.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby Mordum » Fri May 01, 2015 9:26 am

It's been a while since I've seen Terminator, but as I recall Terminator...pretty much stops making any sense during T2. The first movie is a working paradox: things happen because that's how they happened. T2 introducing the idea you can actually CHANGE things, along with being a movie about changing history being inexplicably chronologically set AFTER the first film, more or less destroys any consistent logic presented by the first film. I don't think Terminator really has any meaningful rules for comparison unless you're just going with the first movie (which is a paradox, but a WORKING paradox).

I could also be a nitpicky jerk. I'm also assuming the answer to the original post is that Sally would just, y'know, stop being a robot after a while (or, as I would vastly prefer, use her bio-mechanical cyberuterus to manufacture child bio weapons in honor of the love of her life she murdered in cold blood and every family reunion is just a hilarious metal video).

Mavrickindigo wrote:There's the whole "you can't kill hitler" time problem with that. Gero worked for a secret evil military and didn't even show up in Dragon Ball, then he became reclusive and lived in the mountains somewhere.


Except Dragonball's rules don't work like that, and he could've totally spent three years flying around the planet Earth (or getting Bulma to help with some magic doodad from Capsule Corp) to find Gero.

Dragonball avoids the Hitler problem because nothing Trunks does in the past changes the present, so there's no giant, world defining and history changing super-bad thing everyone wished didn't happen but understand couldn't be changed without drastic consequence. There's no last second "I thought I killed him but these weird circumstances brought everything back to normal" logic here.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Fri May 01, 2015 9:37 am

OncleSam wrote:Well if you take into account the fact that someone from the future being in the present CHANGES the events ... Like **forgetmypoorchoice** Dragon Ball Z where just the FACT that Trunks appeared in the present changed everything. So maybe the FACT that Silver got tangled in the present changed the course of everything.

Spoiler: show
Maybe Mecha Sally's actions did in fact " destroy " the team, but that doesn't mean that she in any case manages to kill Sonic. They obviously found another way to deal with her robot form and that leads to the events of M30YL ( and the kids and stuff ).

It's like in the Marvel Comics, how many times was a team or organisation " destroyed " by the action of people inside, but that doesn't always mean that everyone has to die.

I'm betting more my money on the fact that King Shadow unleashing Perfect Tikhaos and all the stuff in the underground chambers ( I guess ) destroyed Silver's future.

But then again, new continuity, new world, new rules. Don't read too much into it.



That's theory that I considered, but ultimately rejected. According to Silver and Mogul, events that caused end of the world happened around 247, so SOMETHING caused changes there, plus Silver since very beginning was looking for traitor, not king Shadow. Even if XYL was cannon, that doesn't make sense

Still, the idea that Silver changed stuff is possible. That gives us three futures.
1 A good future: the one that we never seen, created when Silver stopped Mecha Sally. It's either reboot or Lost Hedgehog Tales, how you prefer to look at it.
2 A bad, messed up future: After Silver messed with time in 215-216, 'butterfly effect' caused small changes to the future. We don't know how much, but apparently changed traitor from XXXX to Mecha Sally. That would mean that this painting disappeared from time steam.
3 Original bad future: This existed before Silver start playing with time. SOMEONE would be a traitor, but that couldn't be Sally, because she would still have children with Sonic. In fact, seeing that Tails, Antoine and Bunnie had children too, apparently Rotor really was traitor (that or traitor was forgiven and his child was allowed to join new FF).

apprentice manta wrote:4. Sally could still be their biological mom, but also spent some time as Mecha Sally. There's a big time gap between Mecha Sally causing havoc & Sonic becoming king, Sonia & Manic growing up to be FFs. Sally as a Robot could have forced the original FF to disband, damaged the ecosystem, helped Eggman gain control of more territory, yadda yadda, been branded a traitor by history books even while Sonic looked for a way to reverse the robotization process.

Sally could then be restored to organics, Sonic forgive her (but some citizens or historians still distrust Sally somewhat). Years pass, Sonic & Sally marry, they re-unite divided factions on Mobius, have children, yadda yadda, Silver's finds old books in library, goes to investigate...


That's a logical theory. Still, that means that Sonic, Sally, Tails, Mina Knuckles, Julie-Su, Bunnie, Antoine, and Vector lived through this 'end of the worlds' to raise anothe generation, but couldn't stopped it later. Kinda surprising.
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Re: Silver & Traitor Case: Mind Blow

Postby TheFatPanda » Fri May 01, 2015 10:52 am

You know what I don't get: how Tikhaos briefly factored into the ruined future.
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