Good Vs Good - pointless?

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Re: Good Vs Good - pointless?

Postby Chameleon Guy » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:16 pm

I don't mind nobody winning in good vs good, but it's gotten predictable too, like people said, if A wins it doesn't mean B is weaker, for example in Total Eclipse I was kind of disappointed, ok... nobody can beat Sonic, but Knuckles vs Shadow was an interesting match, and Shadow was already tired from another fight, so it would only have made sense for Knux to win.

Though I was happy with Champions, it gave plenty of resolutions, and I didn't care about the last fight, it was cool to see Tails beat Metal Sonic, he finally got his moment of glory. I hope to see more of those resolutions in the future, it's just... not that fun when things always end with a draw.

An interesting thing is that Sonic is roboticized in Worlds Unite, someone will have to stop him.
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Re: Good Vs Good - pointless?

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:33 pm

Chameleon Guy wrote:An interesting thing is that Sonic
Spoiler: show
is roboticized in Worlds Unite


Sigh, I was trying to avoid ANY SPOILERS about World Unite. :(
Maybe you should edit that for other people who want toavoid spoilers too?
Last edited by MetalSkulkBane on Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Good Vs Good - pointless?

Postby SonicSoul » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:49 pm

Well it's not exactly a spoiler when him and MeEgga Man are on two of the covers.

And I think "neutralized/cured" would be better to say than an outright defeat for Sonic since yunno, he's not a 'good guy' if he's roboticized or just not in control of his actions or thoughts. Heck, we're not even sure what exactly it is yet that'll cure him and Mega Man, but pretty sure it won't be settled with a flat-out "character vs character that'll show this character is better than him!" fight that some seem to insist here.
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Re: Good Vs Good - pointless?

Postby DoNotDelete » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:17 am

It's really not so important if the characters are 'good' or 'evil' (I personally really don't like using those terms when creating/describing characters) - it's the debate that has created the conflict. The role of the protagonist and the antagonist is to present and argue both sides of a debate.
__________

Shadow and Knuckles arguing about what to do with the Master Emerald in 'Total Eclipse' is a pretty good case study of how to do this correctly - to create 'realistic' conflict between characters who would otherwise be allies (Shadow's loyalties are often uncertain/in flux but for the most part he's 'good' I suppose - or at least 'not evil'):

Knuckles - the protagonist - wants to keep the Master Emerald on Angel Island so he can keep an eye on it - he's the guardian of the Master Emerald so he gets to say what happens to it. Also he's certain he can keep Eclipse at bay.

Shadow - the antagonist - believes the best way to keep the Master Emerald out of Eclipse's claws is to relocate it to a secure G.U.N. facility - Eclipse knowing the whereabouts of the Master Emerald makes leaving it out in the open on Angel Island a very bad idea.

Neither of these arguments are solely 'correct' and could be debated at length/ad infinitum. So - not being the most diplomatic of characters - Shadow and Knuckles inevitably resort to an ol' game of fisticuffs in order to decide who gets to do what with the Master Emerald.
__________

Whether a character is 'good' or 'evil' is always a secondary concern - it's the debate/conflict that is important and whether or not those characters are in a position to properly/confidently argue their case. Sometimes this means putting two 'good guys' up against each other, other times it means putting two 'evil guys' up against each other - whatever serves the story best.


Ian Flynn wrote:
MetalSkulkBane wrote:2 So it would be official that, let's say. Blaze is stronger than Amy. So what? Will Amy fans really start complaining?

Oh yes. Ohhhhhh yes. There are Amy fans who go on long rants when Sally has more panel appearances in an issue than Amy. There are fans who cannot bring themselves to like Blaze because she might be a potential love interest for Sonic.

It's been ten years. I have seen it all. "Will [character] fans really start complaining over [aspect]?" The answer is: Yes. Always.

I imagine that the answer is again a resounding "Yes!" but, do you actually get hate mail for reasons such as this?
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Re: Good Vs Good - pointless?

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:51 am

DoNotDelete wrote:Shadow and Knuckles arguing about what to do with the Master Emerald in 'Total Eclipse' is a pretty good case study of how to do this correctly - to create 'realistic' conflict between characters who would otherwise be allies (Shadow's loyalties are often uncertain/in flux but for the most part he's 'good' I suppose - or at least 'not evil'):

Knuckles - the protagonist - wants to keep the Master Emerald on Angel Island so he can keep an eye on it - he's the guardian of the Master Emerald so he gets to say what happens to it. Also he's certain he can keep Eclipse at bay.

Shadow - the antagonist - believes the best way to keep the Master Emerald out of Eclipse's claws is to relocate it to a secure G.U.N. facility - Eclipse knowing the whereabouts of the Master Emerald makes leaving it out in the open on Angel Island a very bad idea.

Neither of these arguments are solely 'correct' and could be debated at length/ad infinitum. So - not being the most diplomatic of characters - Shadow and Knuckles inevitably resort to an ol' game of fisticuffs in order to decide who gets to do what with the Master Emerald.


I must admit, I looooved this conflict :mrgreen:. It wasn't misunderstanding like most fight, both of them were fighting for very reason they were BORN for (protect ME/ stop Black Arms). If they talked this out, they would still disagree.
And both sides were kinda right. If Team Dark just left then Eclipse would probably defeat Knuckles and take ME. If they took it, then Snively would use it for whatever he's planning.

Honestly I was kinda angry at Rouge for yelling at them.
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Re: Good Vs Good - pointless?

Postby DoNotDelete » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:11 am

Actually I really liked Rouge in 'Total Eclipse'. Having her dislocated arm re-set by Omega like that upped her 'tough girl' credibility massively - I want to see more of her because of this (I like tough female characters).

Knuckles and Shadow were never going to accomplish anything fighting like they were - Rouge needed to be the 'angry mom' and step in to tell them off - I think that was pretty cool, honestly.
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Re: Good Vs Good - pointless?

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:15 am

If Shadow knocked down Knuckles, then case would be solved.

Besides, I know that technically she was right, but why didn't she intervene earlier? Her 'let them bash their head' wasn't a good strategic decision.
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Re: Good Vs Good - pointless?

Postby Astrobot7000 » Tue May 05, 2015 12:24 pm

Mordum wrote:
SonicBlueRanger wrote:
Astrobot7000 wrote:I am very sick and tired of these headline fights between two good characters where no one wins. Its always the same shtick. Can we get a Sonic and Knuckles fight where there is just a clear winner for once? I think this comic can move beyond that trope at this point.


Here's the thing though if someone wins that means that character is in fact much stronger than the one who lost. Its honestly better to have end abruptly than answer the theoretical "Who's stronger question" as it leaves them equals.


I don't get the big deal. Why would it be so hard to love a character "weaker' than other characters?

My favorite Sonic character is Princess Elise and I'm pretty sure she's not gonna be able to Muhammed Ali a furry in the head very successfully.


Just because a character wins a fight doesn't necessarily make them stronger. Characters win fights all the time through duplicity, or using the environment around them to their temporary advantage. It would just be nice to see a clear winner in a hero vs hero fight for once. How many times have Sonic and Knuckles duked it out without a winner? I mean, at a certain point it just becomes intollerable. At least to me. At least in the Marvel VS DC crossovers some characters won and some characters lost. It doesn't mean a character was killed, or absolutely stronger. There was just a clear winner.

For example: Thor VS Superman in Avengers VS JLA. Superman won. Canon victory. What a breath of fresh air that was.
Second example: Captain America VS Batman. Captain America won because Batman conceded after having a mock duel. An example of theri being a winner withough a fight.
Third Example: Aqua Man VS the She Hulk. Aqua Man wins the fight by evading her long enough. An example of a weaker character managing to win outside of a clear strength victory.

I'm tired of there just being constant ties between the two star characters. Maybe Knuckles wins, maybe Sonic wins. Why is it so wrong for there to be an actual winner between two heroes?
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Re: Good Vs Good - pointless?

Postby hog of the future » Tue May 05, 2015 2:16 pm

Because it would be stupid for the villains to not take advantage of the heroes' distraction. If the villain is going to strike, the heroes have to stop him fighting to deal with him.
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Re: Good Vs Good - pointless?

Postby Astrobot7000 » Wed May 06, 2015 5:59 am

Only if the plot is written that way. Besides, what you said is the pinnacle of the problem. "Oh hey, we're fighting but let's put it on hold for now because there's a bad guy here that needs to be stopped." It's the most cliche aspect of the hero vs hero. It makes just as much sense for the antagonist to attack when the heroes are exauhsted after the fight is over and there is a winner. In fact, it makes it even more tense because now the heroes have to figure out a way to win when they are pooped out.
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