When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby Kureejii Lea » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:40 pm

Xabin wrote:
Kureejii Lea wrote:Marine is like seven years old.


Really? Well darn, I thought she was older, considering she captained her own ship. Y'see? This is why I say that the Sega Sonic style is near-impossible to tell how old a character actually is without details like this.


Look at the height and, for girls, look at the eyelashes. It's a decent enough indicator.

NeonZephyr wrote:Granted, I'm not against the idea of Blaze being a lesbian. Or bi. Or any orientation. But, stereotyping sexuality to simple behavioral traits or appearance or similar is... demeaning. Not to mention narrow-minded.


I tend to agree with this. It's not really any different than "Rotor is socially awkward, therefore he's gay."
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby TurboTailz » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:42 pm

Xabin wrote:Well, let's assume Blaze is a lesbian
there's nothing to assume that she isn't nor is hinted about.
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby Toby » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:44 pm

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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby Xabin » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:45 pm

Kureejii Lea wrote:
Xabin wrote:
Kureejii Lea wrote:Marine is like seven years old.


Really? Well darn, I thought she was older, considering she captained her own ship. Y'see? This is why I say that the Sega Sonic style is near-impossible to tell how old a character actually is without details like this.


Look at the height and, for girls, look at the eyelashes. It's a decent enough indicator.

NeonZephyr wrote:Granted, I'm not against the idea of Blaze being a lesbian. Or bi. Or any orientation. But, stereotyping sexuality to simple behavioral traits or appearance or similar is... demeaning. Not to mention narrow-minded.


I tend to agree with this. It's not really any different than "Rotor is socially awkward, therefore he's gay."


I still think the "height = age" thing is bunk, considering other examples in the comic, but whatever, not going to get into that argument again.

And again, not that I'm not disagreeing with you, but I've had personal experience with people pegging my sexual orientation simply by my mannerisms and such, so there has to be some credit to that.
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby NeonZephyr » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Some people may indicate their relationship with their partner when together, yes. There are often subtle hints that indicate our interest in an individual. That's a common thing in relationships. Myself, I get mild "tunnel vision" when with my partner. But, their gender does not change this. It is simply how *I* act towards *my partner* regardless of gender or anything else. That "some people" can guess your sexuality does not mean that they can guess others. You happen to fit a couple of stereotypes these people have. That is all. (I fit a few of the ace stereotypes, but I do not fit all of them, nor should you ever *ever* say that "oh you like X or act in Y manner, you must be asexual." To use a personal example.)

But, there is no such thing as "acting gay" or anything like that. Just because one person fits a stereotype doesn't mean that everyone does. That's why it's a stereotype. Being homosexual does not mean you act in any particular way. All it means is that the person is attracted to person(s) of the same gender/sex. That is it. So, no. That is not a trait that lesbians have.

Stereotypes are narrow-minded, and often harmful or degrading in at least some manner. Please stop trying to define a sexuality (any sexuality, not just homosexuality) based on them
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby Xabin » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:16 pm

Point. However, that isn't usually the thinking for writers, at the time, and people usually won't pick up on a character's sexuality without at least some of those stereotypes giving them indications to the fact. If we kept everything internalized, then we get the situation with Rotor where the examples are so obscure, you have to flat out say that they are in order for anyone to get it. It's a part of that whole "show, don't tell" part of creative writing and media development. It doesn't mean they have to be defined solely by those traits, but that, for a layman, those traits would have to be somewhat present for the intention to be noticed without the writer flat-out yelling it at you. Remember, Tropes Are Not Bad, if used right; it's only a blatant stereotype and, thus, a wrong way of doing so if you base EVERYTHING about them on it.
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby TurboTailz » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:23 pm

Xabin wrote:Point. However, that isn't usually the thinking for writers, at the time, and people usually won't pick up on a character's sexuality without at least some of those stereotypes giving them indications to the fact. If we kept everything internalized, then we get the situation with Rotor where the examples are so obscure, you have to flat out say that they are in order for anyone to get it. It's a part of that whole "show, don't tell" part of creative writing and media development. It doesn't mean they have to be defined solely by those traits, but that, for a layman, those traits would have to be somewhat present for the intention to be noticed without the writer flat-out yelling it at you. Remember, Tropes Are Not Bad, if used right; it's only a blatant stereotype and, thus, a wrong way of doing so if you base EVERYTHING about them on it.



Nah I just think some people overthink things on certain concepts. The only way you can tell a character is something is when writers start dropping hints like Korra for an example. That thing for Korra didn't start until late 3rd season or practically at the end. It was subtle, but it didn't leave with good taste for some people as you can tell through the media. Not because of what or how it happened, but more of how it was presented.
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby Xabin » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:33 pm

Yeah, I understand, which is why I also understand the dislike for bringing back the "Rotor is gay" thing, considering its history. It's very easy to make it a bad surprise, because people DO seem to focus more on the stereotypes and the hints than the actual chemistry and internal thinking of the character in question. But at the same time, you DO need those hints, for the viewer to start catching on, otherwise when the bombshell is dropped, it seems like a cop-out. I think similar issues were caused when it was revealed Lexington was gay in the Gargoyles cartoon.

For an example, let's go back to Blaze; I haven't been reading up on Treasure Team Tango or her latest excursion with Amy, but I did notice that those focused exclusively on her with a female cast, and I'm curious to know what people noticed about how she interacted with them compared to how she'd interact with a male cast like with Sonic or the like; even if she has no romantic interest in them, there's a very good possibility that she prefers the company of women and girls in friendships and adventures than men and boys, and how she handles that with either gender can go a long way to demonstrate to the viewer which she prefers, on a more intimate level, if done subtly and in a correct manner.
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby NeonZephyr » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:40 pm

Relying on stereotypes is poor writing. Ian is better than that, imo, and he's demonstrated more care and respect for the LGBT+ community than that. Can you hint at a character's sexuality? Yes: by hinting at their attraction to a character. Again, it's that simple.

Representation matters. Good representation matters more. Stereotypes hurt. Media and poor writing enforcing them is potentially harmful. Tropes aren't bad, true, but some "recurring elements" aren't tropes, they're stereotypes. Saying that a more motherly person is gay is no less wrong than "Rotor is shy, he must be gay".

We should expect our media to improve, not just follow the same, harmful paths and "rules" just because it's "common." We do not need stereotypes; on the contrary, we'd be better off without them.
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby TurboTailz » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:47 pm

Xabin wrote:For an example, let's go back to Blaze; I haven't been reading up on Treasure Team Tango or her latest excursion with Amy, but I did notice that those focused exclusively on her with a female cast, and I'm curious to know what people noticed about how she interacted with them compared to how she'd interact with a male cast like with Sonic or the like; even if she has no romantic interest in them, there's a very good possibility that she prefers the company of women and girls in friendships and adventures than men and boys, and how she handles that with either gender can go a long way to demonstrate to the viewer which she prefers, on a more intimate level, if done subtly and in a correct manner.


None of the above..and the only closest thing she might have interests in by a little is Shadow for keeping his promise on returning the Sol Emerald and helping out during the Scourge Saga. When Metal Sonic and Shadow battled through dimensions from Sonic X to Blaze's world where Metal Sonic had a little edge on Blaze a bit in speed. Well probably not speed, but outsmarting her and Shadow until Marine finally gotten out of the way. She might have a interest in Sonic as well since he did teach her how to go super form which helped them out in Sonic Rush games.

You got to understand just like Shadow..Blaze is sort of a loner and rather work alone than in numbers. She holds a big responsibility in her works which is why she has a certain personality, but there is a side of her on understanding trying to trust these new strangers such as Sonic. Shadow was accepted easily by the mentioning of Sonic's name. Blaze let her guard down and felt comfort knowing Shadow was Sonic's friend even though Shadow doesn't truly admit it. When Blaze encountered Amy Rose for the first time they have fought, but once things got under controlled by the mentioning of Sonic's name she began to trust a little.

Blaze doesn't like to work in numbers unless she has to, but when she does work in numbers or accompanied by Marine. She's like Shadow..she's kind of mellowing out and a bit happy to have friends that do share some common interests like protecting the world. However other than that Blaze is a burning furnace and the moment you back stab her is when you'll truly regret it by being roast alive.

NeonZephyr wrote:Relying on stereotypes is poor writing. Ian is better than that, imo, and he's demonstrated more care and respect for the LGBT+ community than that. Can you hint at a character's sexuality? Yes: by hinting at their attraction to a character. Again, it's that simple.


Agreed. It's very simple until it's laid out and then the audience can start guessing who is what.
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby Xabin » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:54 pm

NeonZephyr wrote:Relying on stereotypes is poor writing. Ian is better than that, imo, and he's demonstrated more care and respect for the LGBT+ community than that. Can you hint at a character's sexuality? Yes: by hinting at their attraction to a character. Again, it's that simple.

Representation matters. Good representation matters more. Stereotypes hurt. Media and poor writing enforcing them is potentially harmful. Tropes aren't bad, true, but some "recurring elements" aren't tropes, they're stereotypes. Saying that a more motherly person is gay is no less wrong than "Rotor is shy, he must be gay".

We should expect our media to improve, not just follow the same, harmful paths and "rules" just because it's "common." We do not need stereotypes; on the contrary, we'd be better off without them.


Which is why I say that, if you have to go that route, to put more thought in it than just go with the baseline. Sometimes that's what you have to do; not everyone will get the innuendo between characters without some stereotypes creeping in. It'd be good if they did, but they won't, not all the time. Believe me; as a writer myself, I've seen too many people solely use a character's attraction to someone to try to get the fact that they're gay or straight or whatnot, and people either ship them with someone else, anyway, or they call you out on doing something that they don't see. That's just the nature of your viewership, sadly. Heck, except for the intention of "Rotor is shy, therefore he's gay", all of the hints to him being gay was about his relationship with Cobar, and people STILL didn't get that, until they got it dropped on them, so how can you say that that's the only thing that needs to happen to get the point across?

I'm sorry, but this is again something we'll have to agree to disagree on; we should show respect for the demographics we're trying to portray, but we also need to keep in mind that, with something as controversial and debated as sexuality, people are sadly really dumber than writers give them credit for, and need to be thrown a stereotype-laden bone for them to get it through their thick skulls what you want to intend. The key is to dress that bone in a manner that is logical to the characters and their situation, sensitive enough to the demographic that there won't be as much backlash with it, and independent enough from the characters that they don't become defined by it.
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby NeonZephyr » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:20 pm

Xabin wrote:people either ship them with someone else, anyway, or they call you out on doing something that they don't see.


That's the nature of shipping. Not every ship in logical. Even I have crack!ships. I've seen numerous shows/etc with couples that were *married* that people still shipped with others. It happens.

Xabin wrote:except for the intention of "Rotor is shy, therefore he's gay", all of the hints to him being gay was about his relationship with Cobar, and people STILL didn't get that, until they got it dropped on them, so how can you say that that's the only thing that needs to happen to get the point across?


This isn't really a great example. Penders did a pretty terrible job of writing this "relationship" (though, in my opinion, he was terrible at pretty much all character interactions, not just romance. But that's another issue). Writing a gay couple is really no different than writing a straight one, except that the two parties are of the same gender and/or sex. That's it. A gay character is the same. Yet, plenty of people caught on to Shard's obvious attraction to Nicole before the reboot, and don't forget that BunnieXAntoine came from some really early interaction, with his interest clear from the beginning (even if Sally was foremost in his mind back then). Writing gay interest is no different: write it well and clear, and readers will get it. Shippers will ship what they want. Don't downplay reader intelligence or comprehension based on shippers or one example of poorly written characterization.

Xabin wrote:we should show respect for the demographics we're trying to portray


The best way to do this is to not portray them as stereotypes. It literally does not matter if people "currently" have trouble thinking of characters as one thing or another if we don't come right out and say it. If writing a character clearly in one manner (such as flirting in a manner that signifies intent) doesn't work, there is always another way to try (such as plainly showing them on a date). Just because something doesn't always work at first, it doesn't mean we should give up.

If I were to write a character with racial or ethnic stereotypes, then I would be called out for it. And rightfully so. For another example, you don't have to write a character with stereotypes to signify their faith (if they have one). You can instead incorporate little bits of the faith and culture into their character.

Xabin wrote:people are sadly really dumber than writers give them credit for, and need to be thrown a stereotype-laden bone for them to get it through their thick skulls what you want to intend.


This is an incredibly defeatist mindset for a writer to have, I'm sorry. It's demeaning to your readership and an excuse to not improve upon your writing and strive to break norms to provide better writing. It's easy to just stick with the tropes and stereotypes and cliches that we all know and use. It's harder to try to find new ways to get those points across; but that does not mean it is not worth trying and learning.

Any good creator wants to improve their craft, after all.

I've improved, personally. I've written things I'm outright *ashamed* of. But, I listen to feedback, to what was stereotyped or cliched, and worked to improve, to find other ways to better my craft and better represent the communities I aim to represent (my current project has me attempting to write a neurodivergent character, for example. However, instead of just writing the tropes and stereotypes that everyone knows, I know that those stereotypes are harmful and insulting to the people I aim to represent, and I am working with a neurodivergent individual to better understand and portray the character in a way that is clear but also respects the group I'm writing representation for). This has made me think about characters in different ways, and in turn about plot and so forth. It has improved my writing.

Stereotypes are demeaning. There is no other way I can phrase this. Just because they may not offend you, it does not mean that they do not offend others. It is not a matter of disagreement to me. It is me saying that lazy writing and stereotypes hurt people. Our fiction and other media shape the common mindset of it's readers, especially children. As writers (and other creators) we have a responsibility to provide positive and non-stereotypical representation of group that do not have it. That can help society change and evolve and grow to accept things they once mindlessly rejected.
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby Xabin » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:40 pm

I feel like you guys are so cloistered and sheltered from what actually happens in the real world with this kind of stuff. I'm a member of the furry fandom, I have to deal with stuff like this ALL THE TIME, so I know what I'm talking about, here. Is it wrong and demeaning? Yes, but honestly, people ARE usually that dumb about it, that's why it's so hard to make any sort of relationship in fiction work that isn't straight. And honestly, why is it not possible to show the stereotypes in a POSITIVE light? Every single time I hear about stereotypes being used, it's always demeaning and wrong and shouldn't happen and stuff. Why can't we turn it on its head, then? That's what writers DO; take what they're given and put a creative and unique spin on it.

I'm sorry, but I've had too much experience with this kind of stuff than you guys seem to have to know that what you're suggesting is simply impossible in this day in age; NO ONE will simply get that a character is gay SIMPLY through them liking a character unless it's outright explained to them, and then they're just going to argue that it doesn't work or the character doesn't seem like that before or it was pulled out from the blue. It's painful for you to accept, I understand, but people really are that stupid when it comes to non-straight relationships, and they NEED some sort of stereotype to point them in the right direction. It's just fact. It sucks, but that's just how it is. Until we can eliminate that - which I honestly doubt we can, at this point, given how hard the competition is making it for us - we can't just say "This character likes that character of the same gender", leave it alone, and expect everyone to understand without further context, and unfortunately, for most people, that context has to be explained through things they understand - which usually is stereotypes.

That's why it's so freaking frustrating for me to continue to discuss this topic on here; if it's not "we shouldn't delve into the darker, more obvious parts of shipping and sexuality, for sake of the children", it's "we shouldn't accept any stereotypes AT ALL, because it's always demeaning and can't be turned into a positive thing", both of which I highly disagree with. And I'm honestly getting tired of being slapped down and warned to back off, simply because I'm giving uncomfortable truths that you guys aren't willing to listen. I'm not saying that your INTENTIONS are wrong, just that you are looking through rose colored glasses if you think that what you're talking about is the ONLY way it should be, and the ONLY way it WILL be, which seems to be the consensus here. I know better, because I'm open to the undiluted sewage of the fandom based on this subject, and I know what people think in regards to it, because I see it all the time from their own fingers and lips. You're thinking of eliminating it altogether, and that's fine; but don't even pretend that you can change things with a wave of a magic wand and ignore everything that doesn't agree with that. I'm trying to reach that point through mitigations than outright ignoring the problem and idealizing everything.

Lots of people don't care about age when it comes to fictional characters; most people don't care about anything but physical attraction when it comes to who they ship; and more people than you think have to be reminded through stereotyping that a character IS gay or bi or whatever, because that's what they expect. It sucks, it's wrong, and I won't disagree with your disgust about that. But that IS the world we live in, right now, and it's wrong and just as damaging to say "hide it for the sake of the children" or "we shouldn't even think of a compromise in regards to how we present a character, it has to be this way and nothing else" as those are, because that sets up an idealism that's based on ignorance and rose-tinting, and not on realistic goals. I'm just being practical and pragmatic about this, so don't shoot me for doing so, okay?
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby Azul » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:15 pm

Xabin wrote:I feel like you guys are so cloistered and sheltered from what actually happens in the real world with this kind of stuff.


1) Feelings are never a valid reason to make an accusation.
2) You're making assumptions without any actual justification. But you know what they say about assumptions.

I'm a member of the furry fandom, I have to deal with stuff like this ALL THE TIME, so I know what I'm talking about, here. Is it wrong and demeaning? Yes, but honestly, people ARE usually that dumb about it, that's why it's so hard to make any sort of relationship in fiction work that isn't straight. And honestly, why is it not possible to show the stereotypes in a POSITIVE light? Every single time I hear about stereotypes being used, it's always demeaning and wrong and shouldn't happen and stuff. Why can't we turn it on its head, then? That's what writers DO; take what they're given and put a creative and unique spin on it.


Stereotypes by their very nature are never a good thing. They're extreme generalizations which are never right. If you mean to describe a model example for a specific type of people, then you'd have to rely on archetypes which when depicting real life people rely on cold hard fact. One way to make a lesbian known based soley on appearence for example is to give her short hair, a masculine persona, and either gender neutral or a masculine set of clothes.

I'm sorry, but I've had too much experience with this kind of stuff than you guys seem to have to know that what you're suggesting is simply impossible in this day in age; NO ONE will simply get that a character is gay SIMPLY through them liking a character unless it's outright explained to them, and then they're just going to argue that it doesn't work or the character doesn't seem like that before or it was pulled out from the blue.


That is really narrow minded. If a dude is shown fawning over another dude, I can gurantee like 99% of the viewers are gonna accept that he's gay. The 1% may think it's sketchy if it seems out of the blue even though the contrary has been portrayed for the entirety of the series up to that point. Ex: Bobby Drake aka Iceman of X-Men was in a relationship with Kitty Pride for like a badjillion years. Prior then, it's been established that he's a skirt flipping ladies man. Then, when his younger self comes to the future, past!Jean gray outs him on being gay. Not bi, 100% gay. In real life, there are some gay people who go to the effort to hide their sexuality by getting into relationships with people of the opposite sex and even take it as far as marriage. But when tredding on something like that in the company is just trying to be progressive for progressive's sake which is shallow.

It's painful for you to accept, I understand, but people really are that stupid when it comes to non-straight relationships, and they NEED some sort of stereotype to point them in the right direction. It's just fact. It sucks, but that's just how it is. Until we can eliminate that - which I honestly doubt we can, at this point, given how hard the competition is making it for us - we can't just say "This character likes that character of the same gender", leave it alone, and expect everyone to understand without further context, and unfortunately, for most people, that context has to be explained through things they understand - which usually is stereotypes.

That's why it's so freaking frustrating for me to continue to discuss this topic on here; if it's not "we shouldn't delve into the darker, more obvious parts of shipping and sexuality, for sake of the children", it's "we shouldn't accept any stereotypes AT ALL, because it's always demeaning and can't be turned into a positive thing", both of which I highly disagree with. And I'm honestly getting tired of being slapped down and warned to back off, simply because I'm giving uncomfortable truths that you guys aren't willing to listen. I'm not saying that your INTENTIONS are wrong, just that you are looking through rose colored glasses if you think that what you're talking about is the ONLY way it should be, and the ONLY way it WILL be, which seems to be the consensus here. I know better, because I'm open to the undiluted sewage of the fandom based on this subject, and I know what people think in regards to it, because I see it all the time from their own fingers and lips. You're thinking of eliminating it altogether, and that's fine; but don't even pretend that you can change things with a wave of a magic wand and ignore everything that doesn't agree with that. I'm trying to reach that point through mitigations than outright ignoring the problem and idealizing everything.

Lots of people don't care about age when it comes to fictional characters; most people don't care about anything but physical attraction when it comes to who they ship; and more people than you think have to be reminded through stereotyping that a character IS gay or bi or whatever, because that's what they expect. It sucks, it's wrong, and I won't disagree with your disgust about that. But that IS the world we live in, right now, and it's wrong and just as damaging to say "hide it for the sake of the children" or "we shouldn't even think of a compromise in regards to how we present a character, it has to be this way and nothing else" as those are, because that sets up an idealism that's based on ignorance and rose-tinting, and not on realistic goals.


This entire rant is based on a confusion between stereotypes and archetypes.

I'm just being practical and pragmatic about this, so don't shoot me for doing so, okay?


No offense but you're really not. Pushing for representations of stereotypes and suggesting romance between teenagers and minors in an all ages comic is the very opposite of pragmatic or realistic. Also, you place homosexual subtext in otherwise platonic interactions. The writers didn't, even in the slightest, imply that Blaze prefers the company of women over men during adventures. There was nothing subtle either. Blaze although a loner by choice is very protective of her friends. Implying she's a lesbian based off her behavior for that arc makes absolutely no sense.
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Re: When is this comic getting its first LGBT character?

Postby Xabin » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:20 pm

...*throws up hands and sighs* Fine, I'm freaking wrong, happy? Seems like nothing that comes out of my mouth is being taken even remotely seriously, and is being dismissed as garbage, so whatever, I'm done. Mods, please ban me, I'm done here.
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