SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby SimonSays » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:39 pm

I was reading through this again, and for some reason it stuck out to me this time how Sally seems surprised to find out that Dr. Ellidy had a daughter who died. I'm not sure I understand why this was kept a secret from her- Max would've known, Chuck would've known, Rosie probably would've known, basically everyone at Castle Acorn who was acquainted with Ellidy would've known. Sally herself seemed curious why Ellidy left Mobotropolis abruptly at the beginning of the arc, so wouldn't it just take one question of "why did he leave" for someone to say "he needed to put his past behind him", "like what?", "his daughter died", "oh."

And it seemed like Sally grew up around Ellidy and was familiar with him before he gave her NICOLE. Did she not know that he had a daughter at all?
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby akessel92 » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:57 pm

SimonSays wrote:I was reading through this again, and for some reason it stuck out to me this time how Sally seems surprised to find out that Dr. Ellidy had a daughter who died. I'm not sure I understand why this was kept a secret from her- Max would've known, Chuck would've known, Rosie probably would've known, basically everyone at Castle Acorn who was acquainted with Ellidy would've known. Sally herself seemed curious why Ellidy left Mobotropolis abruptly at the beginning of the arc, so wouldn't it just take one question of "why did he leave" for someone to say "he needed to put his past behind him", "like what?", "his daughter died", "oh."

And it seemed like Sally grew up around Ellidy and was familiar with him before he gave her NICOLE. Did she not know that he had a daughter at all?

It could just be that though she grew up around Ellidy she probably didn't see Nikki as often one would assume. Cause it could be that king acorn, Rosie, Chuck, and Ellidy didn't want sally to bond because since Nikki was dying it would break her heart. Sometimes, adults keep children from knowing the fundamental truth that as everything lives and breaths, everything dies sooner or later. It's sad. Though sally is smart then and now. As a child, coping with loss is unbearable. Which she herself would face later no thanks to Eggman.

I know it sounds stupid but that's my opinion.
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby Kureejii Lea » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:17 pm

SimonSays wrote:I was reading through this again, and for some reason it stuck out to me this time how Sally seems surprised to find out that Dr. Ellidy had a daughter who died. I'm not sure I understand why this was kept a secret from her- Max would've known, Chuck would've known, Rosie probably would've known, basically everyone at Castle Acorn who was acquainted with Ellidy would've known. Sally herself seemed curious why Ellidy left Mobotropolis abruptly at the beginning of the arc, so wouldn't it just take one question of "why did he leave" for someone to say "he needed to put his past behind him", "like what?", "his daughter died", "oh."

And it seemed like Sally grew up around Ellidy and was familiar with him before he gave her NICOLE. Did she not know that he had a daughter at all?


Nope, Sally didn't know. The general idea is that she'd never met Nikki, her dad felt she was better off not knowing the details at her age, and didn't really know Ellidy all that well other than being an acquaintance of her father's -- maybe it helps to not think of everyone as being directly involved in the "royal court" scene as much as it seemed in the old continuity? I did have a lot of backstory and details and features and whatever that were essentially left on the cutting room floor so to speak, and I guess some of it would have been considered sorta superfluous and not all that important to the overall narrative (like, for example, the scene with Rosie originally had a bit more to it) -- some of which I get, but I am a little disappointed that some things got left out of the final. I guess it basically comes down to a learning experience.
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby TurboTailz » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:23 pm

Man I love it when expected theories comes true woohooo!
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby DC » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:04 pm

This storyline does sound interesting enough, and I would be tempted to buy it but then I think about Sonic and Sally and how Archie and Sega have treated them and change my mind.
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby Meliden » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:13 pm

...But Sonic and Sally's connection has no bearing in this arc. It's about Sally and Nicole's friendship.

And this issue really drove that point home, especially as I wasn't expecting Dr Ellidy to be so confrontational about Nicole. How many elderly helper characters did we have pre-reboot that were anything but absolutely selfless and kind?
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:58 pm

Meliden wrote:...But Sonic and Sally's connection has no bearing in this arc. It's about Sally and Nicole's friendship.

And this issue really drove that point home, especially as I wasn't expecting Dr Ellidy to be so confrontational about Nicole. How many elderly helper characters did we have pre-reboot that were anything but absolutely selfless and kind?


Oh, silly Meliden. Don't you know even when there's no shipping involved in the slightest everything's still about shipping?
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby jazzflower92 » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:03 pm

Meliden wrote:...But Sonic and Sally's connection has no bearing in this arc. It's about Sally and Nicole's friendship.

And this issue really drove that point home, especially as I wasn't expecting Dr Ellidy to be so confrontational about Nicole. How many elderly helper characters did we have pre-reboot that were anything but absolutely selfless and kind?


Yeah, Dr. Ellidy does seem to break the cliché which is actually kind of refreshing because it makes him a more complex character. I feel there is a mix of complexity and simplicity in the reboot that makes it engaging to read.
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby apprentice manta » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:44 pm

~incomplete list of elderly villains + jerks~
Hawking was a grumpy old man echidna. He was also the only wheelchair bound Guardian. *sigh* I don't believe Penders meant for that chara to be offensive, but it's tacky to name a toon after a famous real world astrophysicist w/ a handicap just so you can have a token disabled team member appear in a couple scenes.

Bonus: you can't even tell Hawking's got a disability in the official Data File art. Such inclusion, very diverse, much kudos.
Image

Other elderly grumps: King Max in most appearances. Dmitri, before his Heel Realization. (Enerjak I think of as a separate chara, vengeful spirit that could possess + corrupt echidnas under certain circumstances.) Mammoth Mogul wasn't grumpy but he was ancient, manipulative, a behind the scenes instigator of evil. Naugus was a composite of 3 evil wizards.

Gerald Robotnik counts as somebody who turned evil late in life, though he repented at the end IIRC. Battle Kukku XV is still active, still evil. Dr. Fukurokov is yet another elderly bad guy from the games who made it into the comics. Not sure how old Eggman & Wily are, age is just a number to our favorite EFFs.

Helmut Von Stryker & Beauregard Rabbot were more middle-aged anti-villains: they're capable of appalling actions, but also had relatives they cared about, & seemed to sincerely want a better life for their followers.

Antoine's dad was also middle-aged, & only acted like a villain when he was Roboticized, lacked free will. Uncle Chuck had his inventions used for evil purposes, but was never a deliberate bad guy. GalaNa was supposed to be a well intentioned extremist, but you'd think she'd have better plans than 'hire mercenary weasels to stop Chaos Knuckles'. I believe she also gave the go-ahead for a random citizen (Finitevus) to grab a weapon for siphoning off Chaos Energy. ...yeah, that backfired horribly.

~Spark of Life comments~
Really enjoying how complex Dr. Ellidy is. He can be gruff, stubborn, judgmental. He's unfair to NICOLE, yet you can see how the death of Nikki still haunts him. To Ellidy, NICOLE is a too-painful reminder of that loss. This doesn't excuse his worst behavior, but it does make him understandable.

I'm hoping this arc will help Ellidy acknowledge his loneliness & depression. Instead of shutting out the world, I'd like to see him accept friendly gestures. I'd also like for him to learn that while NICOLE can never be what he wanted her to be (replacement Nikki), she's still a person. NICOLE deserves to live her life, have her own dreams. Expecting her to be Nikki 2.0 was a selfish, impossible goal. Ellidy needs to realize this so he can stop blaming NICOLE for everything.
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby Meliden » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:47 pm

I didn't say elderly villains. I meant good elderly figures like Chuck and Nate Morgan and such who helped the characters. Ellidy helps and is good but isn't all nice. Max and Hawking are kind of debatable on how much they helped.
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby apprentice manta » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:09 pm

Ah, okay. Sorry I read that wrong. You're right that the elderly helpers were nice, gentle charas like Rosie, Julayla, Chuck. The 'good but not nice' charas were typically teens like Ash or Monkey Khan.

Maybe Feist counts as 'good but not nice?' He did give Sonic one free Chaos Emerald but usually doesn't care whether anyone gets hurt playing games in his Special Zone.
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby jazzflower92 » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:49 pm

apprentice manta wrote:Ah, okay. Sorry I read that wrong. You're right that the elderly helpers were nice, gentle charas like Rosie, Julayla, Chuck. The 'good but not nice' charas were typically teens like Ash or Monkey Khan.

Maybe Feist counts as 'good but not nice?' He did give Sonic one free Chaos Emerald but usually doesn't care whether anyone gets hurt playing games in his Special Zone.


Breaking the stereotype that good but not nice is always a teen character trait or for Wolverine clones. Its kind of rare to see that trait on a mentor figure.
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby NicTheWeasel » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:05 pm

Welp, this arc officially has me shipping Sally/Nicole. I think this is the first time I've felt like shipping anyone in this comic in over 150 issues. I wouldn't say I really expect it to happen, but I'm liking their dynamic regardless.

I'm enjoying this story quite a bit. The post-reboot stuff has been sort of hit-and-miss with me for a while now, but this one is definitely a hit. Slightly underwhelmed by the Eggman reveal, but I'm still curious to see what's coming.

And I've started to wonder if the digital world will tie in to the upcoming crossover at all. The timing is sort of convenient for setting the stage. None of the Genesis Wave stories have felt really organic yet. It's always just: "We interrupt your regularly scheduled comic to bring you sweeps week a Genesis Wave!" It'd be nice to feel like the story was actually building toward it this time. I'm probably wrong though. If I know one thing, it's that as soon as I theorize something about my favorite entertainment, I've basically guaranteed that it won't happen.
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby linebyline » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:36 pm

The more I think about it, the more I really dislike the Digital World.

For one thing, the digitizer (like the PLOT Device before it) has the "That's not how it works!" problem: Readers who have some understanding of how computers work will notice that nothing in the story actually maps to anything that would happen in a computer. The idea that it wasn't just a computer but a wibbly-wobbly-cybery-wybery world with its own rules seemed like a neat workaround at first, but now it just seems like "It's magic, so I don't have to explain it."

My other big problem is that it's boring. Nothing happens there that can't happen in the normal world. There's no reason the exchange has to be in an alternate world (be it digital, magical, or whatever). It's just Nicole projecting shields, Phage firing energy blasts, and Sally using her blades. What's next, digital Knuckles punching something? Worse yet, the world itself is nothing but blocky shapes, solid colors, and grid lines.

RadRed89 wrote:If [Eggman] controls the Digital World, then he'll basically have a stranglehold on how information gets around in the real world. If Phage's reach spread far enough, he could possibly limit or even outright bar his enemies from using any technology at all, judging by it's capabilities in taking over Ellidey's network. He could basically isolate every Freedom Fighter group from each other, effectively killing any chance of an organized resistance against him.

Not really. The Internet had not yet gone mainstream when SatAM was airing, so there was no such concept in the show, yet the Freedom Fighters managed to do an okay job of coordinating with other groups once they found them.

SimonSays wrote:-I've been wondering if:
Spoiler: show
Ellidy's flashbacks have been of him working on a digitized Nikki who becomes the corrupted and incomplete Phage, rather than working on NICOLE. Phage's dot marks are where Nikki's glasses and bangs are, and her whole look is that of a ghost.

Spoiler: show
I definitely get the impression that Phage is Nikki. However, I still think the flashback of the unit with no designation was NICOLE, not Phage. The segue into that scene was Nicole talking about her memories, after all. Of course, NICOLE existed to make the digital Nikki, not to be her, so if there is/was any digital Nikki (Phage or otherwise) then they coexisted at some point.


SimonSays wrote:- Disappointed Sally had that cool "taking off the gloves and rolling up the sleeves" moment where she hands off her vest and one of the blades, only to revert back to her normal design once in the digital world. Mostly because she looked darned cool in the black tank. The plumbob still makes me happy tho'.

It makes less sense the more you think about it. Really, Sally's body still exists in the real world; the digital Sally is a projection of Sally's consiousness into the digital world. So there's no reason it would have to match the exact state her physical body is in. But then why does she have the blades at all? They're not part of her. For that matter, she ought to be naked or in an outfit generated by the digitizer (not that I'm advocating for nude Sally or a TRON knockoff, mind you). Of course it's possible that the digitizer is scanning users before digitizing so that it creates digital clothes based on their real ones, but then Sally should be missing the vest and a ring.

It really just goes back to that whole "not how it works" thing. The clothes don't really map to anything that would really exist in a digital world. Even the weapons themselves shouldn't, unless the digitizer can look at the weapons, figure out what they'd be good metaphors for (I dunno, deleting a pointer to some data, maybe?), and engineer that ability into the digital avatar. If it can do that, why not just give any avatar that kind of super-power? Or, hey, better super-powers?
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Re: SU #73 - Spark of Life, Pt. 3: Talkback & Discussion

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:59 am

SonicBlueRanger wrote:
Meliden wrote:...But Sonic and Sally's connection has no bearing in this arc. It's about Sally and Nicole's friendship.

And this issue really drove that point home, especially as I wasn't expecting Dr Ellidy to be so confrontational about Nicole. How many elderly helper characters did we have pre-reboot that were anything but absolutely selfless and kind?


Oh, silly Meliden. Don't you know even when there's no shipping involved in the slightest everything's still about shipping?


Marge: It's about time Mr. Burns found a woman. I can't stand to see a man single.
Lisa: Some people enjoy being alone, Mom.
Marge: No, everyone should be paired up.

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Marge: It wasn’t meant to be.


This fandom, sometimes.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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