Unpopular Sonic Opinions

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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby ToaArcan » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:35 pm

DudestofGuys wrote:Yeah, and don't they realize that while merc work nets them a profit in the short term, eventually they'll be busted and lose it all? It's just so illogical to commit crime!


I'm not saying in general, I mean in the specific case of FInitevus. With him, it's lose-lose. If they fail their objectives, the FF beat the snot out of them, the plan is foiled, and they don't get paid. And if the FF were more competent than an average Eggpawn and not bound to let the villains escape because plot, it'd be a trip to jail too! If they succeed, Finitevus kills every living thing except possibly himself (Though he's crazy enough to willingly die once his plan succeeds), and they're dead.

DudestofGuys wrote:And by the way, if you're gonna keep doing that thing where you separate Fiona into different characters because her arc doesn't fit your head canon of how she works, can you at least call them Fiona and "good!Fiona"? You may prefer the latter one, but her personality from ~131-159 is the outlier across the character's appearances.


Pretty sure we just had a rather lengthy argument about this. In my opinion, (And the more I engage with people, the less uncommon said opinion appears- This and some parts of DA are the only places I've seen support for evil!Fiona, and said parts of DA would buy a boxful of cockroaches if it had Ian's name on it) KTE29-STH159 feels like a consistent character arc that was hindered by the general incompetence of the writer telling it, while her turn to evil reads more like the "Patient Zero" example of Ian sacrificing a character's growth to tell his own story, with the bonus weakness of the story itself being weak (Ooh look, the recolour stole Sonic's girlfriend and beat the snot out of him again! It's like it was copy-pasted from a ten-year-old's Fanfiction.net story!)

But please, let's have another long-winded discussion about how FIona, a character who depended on others for her entire existence, totally fits the social darwinist mold. Or how she was such an impactful character due to her more personal emnity with the FF... which she attempted to exploit exactly once and was immediately silenced.

Besides, we've sene her future self, and she's decidedly part of the FF there. So she starts good, goes neutral, goes good again, goes cartoonishly evil to an extent not seen since Gallagher's one-off villains, ends up good, but it's the one bit of evil that represents her as a whole? Yeah, sure, that makes all of the sense.

Evil!Fiona is a proto-Mecha Sally. All the merit and weight her being a villain could've carried was lost. Put her against Tails, to tug on a few heartstrings. Put her against Bunnie to make something of their friendship that didn't get expanded on. Oh no, she just fights Sally again because we have to hammer in that Scourge and Fiona = Evil Sonic and Sally, even though we have Alicia for that. And because of this, you get a shallow, empty mold that could've been anyone. Changing the traitor who throws in with Scourge to a different character would've changed pretty much nothing, aside from some stuff with Tails, which never led up to anything anyway.


Mobotropolis wrote:Mobius is full of cardboard prisons.

It took Sonic maybe five minutes to escape the two times he was seriously taken into custody. Nack demonstrated that he could literally escape at any point during almost year-long imprisonment. Having bars wide enough for the average adult mobian to squeeze through seems like a critical design flaw.

Incidentally, Geoffrey was responsible for both of those. :roll:


And this is why Nicole used force shields in New Mobotropolis.


Mobotropolis wrote:
Question: How the heck did Finitevus ever get minions?

He paid them.

Judging by Scourge and Fiona's reaction to seeing Enerjak Finitevus might have omitted some (read: the entirety) of his plans.

I guess if you want to ask how Finitevus got the money to pay these people that might be a valid question.


Fair enough, but then how did he get Fiona and the Destructix back into his employ post-Knuxerjak after several monologues about burning everything? That's the sort of thing that works once, and then causes the party in question to wise up and not throw in with him again.

The "Where does he get the cash" is another good point, though.

I mean, I like Finitevus, he's one of the better villains, but he's a bit lacking in longevity.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby The KKM » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:20 pm

Finitevus has infinite longevity up to a point. He's the kind of villain you can just drag on and on on having his machinations, but the minute they climax, there's not much else to go if you don't want to repeat the Enerjak plot. This of course if you intend to keep him roughly the same character without big changes.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby ToaArcan » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:49 pm

The KKM wrote:Finitevus has infinite longevity up to a point. He's the kind of villain you can just drag on and on on having his machinations, but the minute they climax, there's not much else to go if you don't want to repeat the Enerjak plot. This of course if you intend to keep him roughly the same character without big changes.


I've seen people put him Robotnik's place in SA1 adaptations, and I'm actually working on something that links him to Chaos through a different means. I also have plans to make him the instigator of an Advance 3 adaptation, since Gemerl has the same colours as his clothing, the same objective, and even the same guyliner.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Xabin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:54 pm

Not canon anymore, thanks to the reboot, and it was a stupid canon to begin with; why does Enerjak have to be a "force ghost" that ever has been and ever will be? He wasn't written that way to begin with, that was a later development. And honestly, it makes little sense, in regards to Knuckles and what his dad did to him; if Enerjak's spirit possesses those with an overdose of Master Emerald energy, then why didn't it possess Knuckles or his dad? Why did Finitevus have to DELIBERATELY invoke him in order to possess Knuckles? And, this is just my spotty memory talking, but I don't recall them mentioning anything about past Enerjaks when Knuckles became him; I believe that was brought over during the Dark Mobius plot. So, really, it's not that canon, then or now, and I choose to ignore it on the stupid premise that it is.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Xabin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:01 pm

Mobotropolis wrote:You seem to completely disregard anything that inconveniences your headcanon.

Even things that are actually canon.

I can respect that, and have made note not to waste my time in the future. :P


I can accept a lot of things that are canon, just not this, because I don't recall it ever being truly canon; I don't recall the whole "Enerjak of the past before Dimitri" thing cropping up until Dark Mobius, which is just a possible future and is debatably canon, despite what people say about it being the only choice for a future in old continuity Sonic. And that doesn't explain what Enerjak has to do with the Master Emerald, or why it didn't possess Finitevus when he was "born", or Knuckles when he was a living Chaos Emerald, etc., if the only thing that is required for his possession is a connection to it. Heck, Finitevus had to DELIBERATELY invoke Enerjak in order to turn Knuckles into him, so what's up with that? Honestly, it seems more like a state of being than a possession.

Look, it's not that I don't like Finitevus, insomuch as his design and some of his concepts go (like the Warp Rings), I just don't see him as being much different than the character he's clearly based on, which is Dimitri Enerjak.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby FancyFool » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:56 pm

Sorry to make a post that has nothing to do with the current discussion but, with the forum about to close soon, I've decided to reveal my most unpopular opinion of all (at least on this forum): I honestly don't care about Sally Acorn at all. I have never liked her and I most likely never will like her.

There's just so much about her that rubs me the wrong way: the design she had for the longest time (which clashed with the rest of the Sonic characters, namely the ones from the games), her being the love interest for Sonic for the longest time (when, by most accounts, they have no positive chemistry at all and indeed their "romance" is one of the most forced and problematic parts of the franchise), how prominent of a character she was made to be (getting a grand amount of focus in both mediums she appears in, even to the detriment of other characters such as Amy, a main character from the games and one of my absolute favorite characters of all time), and how she garners favoritism from pretty much every writer who handles her (resulting in her getting favorable treatment, again even at the expense of other characters again, like Amy, and coming off as a Mary Sue).

There's also how, ever since SWC began, Sally continuously sidelined Cream (one of my absolute favorite characters of all time and one I'm most passionate about), forcing her to stay on board Sky Patrol and literally do nothing else instead of actually contributing to the Freedom Fighters, which Cream seriously needed in order to justify her position in the Freedom Fighters (and hasn't had much impactful action ever since her long-overdue debut in the comics). Even after Cream essentially saved the entire team from death, being the sole reason everyone is alive, from a bone-headed mistake of Sally's no less, Sally continued to force Cream to stay on Sky Patrol and do nothing out of concern for her safety when that entire event, alongside the now canon games that Cream took part in, showed that Cream is every bit capable and Sally has no freaking room to talk in regards to Cream and her capabilities. I know that this will change soon and this whole thing is technically Ian's doing but it's seriously hard not to get angry at Sally for depriving Cream much needed action and contribution, especially since I already dislike Sally and Cream, again, is one of my absolute favorite characters...

At the very least, I try not to outright despise Sally Acorn. I WANT to give her character a chance and appreciate her existence, especially since the things that I dislike about her are mostly the fault of the people handling her character rather than her actual character (as is the case with every other Sonic character). But at this point, the chances of me changing my very negative impression of Sally is very, very minimal...
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby The KKM » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:57 pm

RE: enerjak the ghost- It's explicitly said in the Encyclopaedia, which WAS canon, so.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Mordum » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:05 pm

FancyFool wrote:
There's also how, ever since SWC began, Sally continuously sidelined Cream (one of my absolute favorite characters of all time and one I'm most passionate about)


Just curious: why Cream?
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Xabin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:12 pm

The KKM wrote:RE: enerjak the ghost- It's explicitly said in the Encyclopaedia, which WAS canon, so.


The Encyclopedia, if you're talking about the published one, I believe was woefully inaccurate with a bunch of parts and actually had parts of it cut off for no discernible reason. Sorry, but that doesn't convince me of anything. You might as well be saying that it's canon, because it's on the Wiki page with a listing beside it saying "citation needed".
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby FancyFool » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:16 pm

Mordum wrote:
FancyFool wrote:
There's also how, ever since SWC began, Sally continuously sidelined Cream (one of my absolute favorite characters of all time and one I'm most passionate about)


Just curious: why Cream?

Why Cream's one of my absolute favorite characters? Honestly, I don't know how to explain it very well. I just find her character very appealing and I think that she has loads of potential as a character (the fact that she's one of the more powerful characters in most of the games she's playable in demonstrates that she's more than she appears). As for why I'm very passionate about her, it's because her potential isn't being achieved (she's, bar none, one of the most underused characters in the franchise), she's getting neglectful treatment from everyone in charge of the franchise (the aforementioned sidelining in the comics didn't help at all), and her popularity among fans (even people who like her) declining into oblivion. I guess you could say I'm becoming increasingly passionate to "fill the void", if that makes sense...
Last edited by FancyFool on Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby SonicWindAttack » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:46 pm

FancyFool wrote:Sorry to make a post that has nothing to do with the current discussion but, with the forum about to close soon, I've decided to reveal my most unpopular opinion of all (at least on this forum): I honestly don't care about Sally Acorn at all. I have never liked her and I most likely never will like her.

There's just so much about her that rubs me the wrong way: the design she had for the longest time (which clashed with the rest of the Sonic characters, namely the ones from the games), her being the love interest for Sonic for the longest time (when, by most accounts, they have no positive chemistry at all and indeed their "romance" is one of the most forced and problematic parts of the franchise), how prominent of a character she was made to be (getting a grand amount of focus in both mediums she appears in, even to the detriment of other characters such as Amy, a main character from the games and one of my absolute favorite characters of all time), and how she garners favoritism from pretty much every writer who handles her (resulting in her getting favorable treatment, again even at the expense of other characters again, like Amy, and coming off as a Mary Sue).

There's also how, ever since SWC began, Sally continuously sidelined Cream (one of my absolute favorite characters of all time and one I'm most passionate about), forcing her to stay on board Sky Patrol and literally do nothing else instead of actually contributing to the Freedom Fighters, which Cream seriously needed in order to justify her position in the Freedom Fighters (and hasn't had much impactful action ever since her long-overdue debut in the comics). Even after Cream essentially saved the entire team from death, being the sole reason everyone is alive, from a bone-headed mistake of Sally's no less, Sally continued to force Cream to stay on Sky Patrol and do nothing out of concern for her safety when that entire event, alongside the now canon games that Cream took part in, showed that Cream is every bit capable and Sally has no freaking room to talk in regards to Cream and her capabilities. I know that this will change soon and this whole thing is technically Ian's doing but it's seriously hard not to get angry at Sally for depriving Cream much needed action and contribution, especially since I already dislike Sally and Cream, again, is one of my absolute favorite characters...

At the very least, I try not to outright despise Sally Acorn. I WANT to give her character a chance and appreciate her existence, especially since the things that I dislike about her are mostly the fault of the people handling her character rather than her actual character (as is the case with every other Sonic character). But at this point, the chances of me changing my very negative impression of Sally is very, very minimal...

Yeah, I honestly never cared much for Sally either. Especially in the early days, it seems like everyone treated her like some super-important member of the team that deserves praise left and right, but... I just couldn't see it. She makes so many mistakes, and is hardly ever called out on it. I just can't see the way the characters treat her as the way they would realistically act unless the plot demands she look good, which is a lot. The worst part to me is how this compares to how Sonic is treated. For example, when Sally gets roboticized for the first time (which was planned, mind you, but still fails because of a stupid mistake on her part), nobody can bring themselves to fight her and nobody is upset with her when she is inevitably changed back. When Sonic is roboticized, they show no hesitation in wanting to take him on, and Sally even screams that he's a traitor... even though not much earlier she said he would never betray them. When things are looking bleak with Mecha Sonic, she shouts "Let freedom ring!" in the same breath as saying she wants to roboticize an unconscious Knuckles. And when Sonic is changed back, she immediately arrests him without giving him a chance to explain himself and acts like she's been betrayed when it's really Sonic who should be feeling that way. Not to mention she tried to OUTRIGHT MURDER him back when he lost his memory by flooding the corridor he was in. And in both cases, when things are inevitably back to normal? He forgives her instantly, no bitterness or rightful calling-outs or anything like that. Plus, she's allowed to keep secrets like her past with Knuckles and her whole plan with Geoffrey in the Sally mini-series, but Sonic having a plan without telling her is bad.

But it doesn't end there. Now we all know about the infamous slap in #134, but my problem isn't with the slap itself as much as peoples' reaction to it. She does it in front of everyone, and nobody is mad at her for it. Not even Amy. I know she and Sally aren't love rivals or anything, but you expect me to believe she wouldn't be the least bit angry when Sally slaps Sonic right in front of her? In all their subsequent meetings, they act like best friends, as if it never happened. And then there's her marriage to Patch. Sure, he's not the real Antoine, but everyone thought he was. And knowing how much it would devastate both Sonic and Bunnie, she marries him (albeit reluctantly). And, you guessed it, neither of them are the least bit upset with her when all is said and done. But Sonic dating Fiona to help his best friend get over her? Apparently that makes him a bad guy. And later we tread familiar ground again when Sonic is being remote-controlled by Eggman, and nobody even bothers to stop attacking him and ask what the deal is until Knuckles shows up. But when Sally is roboticized again, nobody can bring themselves to fight her and they treat it like it's the worst thing in the world. It just doesn't end. Thankfully, she hasn't done anything in the reboot thus far to make me hate her guts, and hopefully it stays that way.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Kureejii Lea » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:57 pm

SonicWindAttack wrote: she shouts "Let freedom ring!" in the same breath as saying she wants to roboticize an unconscious Knuckles.


I'm sorry, I know this is literally what happens but phrasing it this bluntly makes it hilarious.

Plus, she's allowed to keep secrets like her past with Knuckles


...until she gets mad at him for "keeping secrets."

About things he didn't have any clue about to begin with.

...yeah, I probably shouldn't get started here. Sorry. :P
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby FancyFool » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:44 pm

SonicWindAttack wrote:Yeah, I honestly never cared much for Sally either. Especially in the early days, it seems like everyone treated her like some super-important member of the team that deserves praise left and right, but... I just couldn't see it. She makes so many mistakes, and is hardly ever called out on it. I just can't see the way the characters treat her as the way they would realistically act unless the plot demands she look good, which is a lot. The worst part to me is how this compares to how Sonic is treated. For example, when Sally gets roboticized for the first time (which was planned, mind you, but still fails because of a stupid mistake on her part), nobody can bring themselves to fight her and nobody is upset with her when she is inevitably changed back. When Sonic is roboticized, they show no hesitation in wanting to take him on, and Sally even screams that he's a traitor... even though not much earlier she said he would never betray them. When things are looking bleak with Mecha Sonic, she shouts "Let freedom ring!" in the same breath as saying she wants to roboticize an unconscious Knuckles. And when Sonic is changed back, she immediately arrests him without giving him a chance to explain himself and acts like she's been betrayed when it's really Sonic who should be feeling that way. Not to mention she tried to OUTRIGHT MURDER him back when he lost his memory by flooding the corridor he was in. And in both cases, when things are inevitably back to normal? He forgives her instantly, no bitterness or rightful calling-outs or anything like that. Plus, she's allowed to keep secrets like her past with Knuckles and her whole plan with Geoffrey in the Sally mini-series, but Sonic having a plan without telling her is bad.

But it doesn't end there. Now we all know about the infamous slap in #134, but my problem isn't with the slap itself as much as peoples' reaction to it. She does it in front of everyone, and nobody is mad at her for it. Not even Amy. I know she and Sally aren't love rivals or anything, but you expect me to believe she wouldn't be the least bit angry when Sally slaps Sonic right in front of her? In all their subsequent meetings, they act like best friends, as if it never happened. And then there's her marriage to Patch. Sure, he's not the real Antoine, but everyone thought he was. And knowing how much it would devastate both Sonic and Bunnie, she marries him (albeit reluctantly). And, you guessed it, neither of them are the least bit upset with her when all is said and done. But Sonic dating Fiona to help his best friend get over her? Apparently that makes him a bad guy. And later we tread familiar ground again when Sonic is being remote-controlled by Eggman, and nobody even bothers to stop attacking him and ask what the deal is until Knuckles shows up. But when Sally is roboticized again, nobody can bring themselves to fight her and they treat it like it's the worst thing in the world. It just doesn't end. Thankfully, she hasn't done anything in the reboot thus far to make me hate her guts, and hopefully it stays that way.

*Applauds* Very well said! I couldn't even hope to say it any better than you just did! And yeah, this is another thing about Sally that rubs me off the wrong way, the major reason besides her sidelining Cream and being forced into every story: how she's always portrayed as "in the right" or at least sympathetically. Whenever Sally does something wrong, it's very rarely called out. Nearly everything she says is always "right" and anyone who disagrees is in the wrong. As you pointed out, she had Sonic arrested and even attempted to MURDER him when he was turned against them, against his will, but not only is Sonic willing to forgive her and even continue having romantic affections for her (when, at that point, Sally should've become an immediate turn off) but when the exact same thing happens to Sally, no one (not even destruction obsessed sociopath Omega) is willing to harm her and don't blame her for the situation.

If anything, the only one in-universe allowed to criticize Sally is Sally herself and whenever she does lament herself for the bad things she does, others are quick to assure her that it's fine. When she actually voiced regret for slapping Sonic, Monkey Khan was quick to tell her that it was okay. When Sally nearly led her entire team (sans Nicole, Cream, and Big) to their deaths in a blatant trap, that she pointed out herself no less, Sally was the one calling herself an idiot, throwing a pity party for herself and everyone was completely okay with it (and Sally continues to sideline Cream, who just SAVED THEIR LIVES FROM HER STUPIDITY)! If Amy Rose had done any of this, no one would let her live it down, but it's all okay if Sally does them because... Because.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby Mordum » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:40 pm

Every single character should be judged based on his (but not her) relationship to Cream.
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Re: Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Postby DudestofGuys » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:51 pm

Mordum wrote:Every single character should be judged based on his (but not her) relationship to Cream.
Candy Stealer.jpg

Seems fair to me.
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