The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Damo » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:18 pm

The KKM wrote:Or they can not do that.


Yes, they can certainly let an author go uncompensated for reproduction of his work after realizing they did not have a contract giving them legal ownership of that work. That's an option.
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby The KKM » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:23 pm

We were not in the court. We do not know if they have not already covered for this. For all we know, they've set up legal precedent for reprinting things freely, just not making new content with them. All Bollers as shown is ignorance of his work being removed from the ongoing comic, nothing else, anyways.
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Mavrickindigo » Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:05 pm

The thing is that out of all the creators, Karl has the most number of characters people actually want back

Finitevus
Hope
Mina + Ash

plenty more. I mean how many people were devastated when SU 62 came out and there was no sign of Hope?
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Damo » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:40 pm

The KKM wrote:We were not in the court. We do not know if they have not already covered for this. For all we know, they've set up legal precedent for reprinting things freely,


The timing for when they stopped reprinting his work is extremely suggestive, as is what work they have been reprinting. They're reprinting works by people currently employed by Archie, as well as some by authors who came in after the supposed loss of contracts. That doesn't point to them having legal precedent to reprint things freely.

You don't want Karl to be harassed by fans trying to be helpful. I absolutely agree with that. Fans need to leave him alone. But Archie's actions are, at the very least, extremely fishy.

Yes, as a fan I would love for his characters to return. And I suspect (although I could be wrong) that Karl would be dissapointed to have his legacy with the book erased due to the actions of another creator he had considerable friction with. Or maybe he doesn't care at all, sure, he's having success over at Paradigm. When I thought that the disappearance of the characters was simply that a good arrangement couldn't be worked out, I was dissapointed but satisfied with moving on. If, on the other hand, Archie made no efforts to set things right, and is trying to get out of having to give a creator compensation he's legally entitled to (as well as lazily making no effort to secure the rights for SEGA, something they agreed to do under their original contract), that's a very different situation.
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Razorsaw » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:53 pm

Damo wrote:
The KKM wrote:Or they can not do that.


Yes, they can certainly let an author go uncompensated for reproduction of his work after realizing they did not have a contract giving them legal ownership of that work. That's an option.


But they're no longer reproducing his work.

You're assuming a LOT on the motivations of Archie, also. Penders wasn't just saying Bollers was going to be a witness, he spoke of him as if he was going to be championing the sane cause he was.

In any case, after, what, several years in court, I think Archie and Sega were fully justified in saying to themselves "Never again."
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Tylinos » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:56 pm

Razorsaw wrote:
Damo wrote:
The KKM wrote:Or they can not do that.


Yes, they can certainly let an author go uncompensated for reproduction of his work after realizing they did not have a contract giving them legal ownership of that work. That's an option.


But they're no longer reproducing his work.

To be fair, they're reproducing his work in the Archives. #23 just came out this month with Issue #85 in it, which was written by Karl.
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Razorsaw » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:04 pm

That's fair.
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Mavrickindigo » Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:54 pm

It's just sad that Archie didn't even seem to want to make an attempt to keep what characters they could, especially since they went out of their way to show us that they could still use Bollers stuff before the Reboot.
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Razorsaw » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:41 pm

How long were they in court? How close did they come to losing the license?

How much more do we have to ask of them?
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby DarkEnerjak7 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:08 pm

I think we can give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Damo » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:34 pm

DarkEnerjak7 wrote:I think we can give them the benefit of the doubt.


We gave the benefit of the doubt when we assumed they had Ken's contract, and a little more benefit in assuming that if they didn't have the rights to old characters they'd at least make a token effort.

If they have Karl's contract then it's downright odd that there's no sign they'll be using any of his characters. Some would have required more work to adapt to the new universe than others, but surely Mina the Songbird wouldn't have been too tricky to fit in. If they haven't used the characters because they can't find his contract, that leaves the legality of past and future reprints of his work in question. The fact that he expressed surprise the characters weren't in use implies both that as far as he was concerned the characters aren't his to own, and that Archie's made no contact with him regarding ownership of anything. No matter how you dice it, things are weird here. Bordering on sketchy.
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby The KKM » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:16 pm

Or maybe from where we're standing it's easy to see the illuminati?

Again, none of us was there in the court to see what happened.
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Toby » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:09 pm

Even if they DID have the right and ability to use Karl's characters, it doesn't mean they have to. They're not obligated in any way, shape, or form.
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Damo » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:09 pm

The KKM wrote:Again, none of us was there in the court to see what happened.


What happened in court was that Archie settled, something they would never have done if they could find a valid copy of Ken's contract. That, in conjunction with the statement from a former Archie staffer that contracts had been lost in the 90s, as well as former staffers stating that they had never signed away their ownership, raises the definite possibility that Archie is missing other legal documents as well. The absence of Karl's characters from the new universe suggests that Archie is unsure if they have legal grounds to claim ownership of his characters, which in turn raises questions about the legality of reprints with his work. If the sealed court documents reveal that everything happening with Karl is 100% legal, fine. But there is no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt at this point. This whole misadventure has already been a black eye for creators' rights.

Toby wrote:Even if they DID have the right and ability to use Karl's characters, it doesn't mean they have to. They're not obligated in any way, shape, or form.


True, but it would be uncharacteristic for Ian to not even hint that he has the right to use them, if he does. And if they felt confident about legal ownership the characters it wouldn't make sense for Archie to ban their use, partly because it makes it look like the company might have made another blunder.
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Re: The New Continuity Roll Call (updated to NEWEST issue)

Postby Matt7325 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:16 am

For all we know Sega was exasperated (to put it mildly) after the Penders saga drama and demanded everything non-Sega was removed from the book as part of the reboot/cleanup. Ian has mentioned that he had to fight to keep the SatAM characters in it; it would not surprise me if Sega didn't want to deal with this headache again and took a hardline "Sonic and friends only" approach, but Ian managed to convince them to take on the FFs and his characters as well.

We really, really don't know anything about the court case and following settlement. Everything is presumption and hearsay; it would be neglectful to use any of it as scaffolding for further leaps in logic.
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