The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Mobotropolis » Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:20 pm

Next we'll be hearing that Cassia can't be a gamer because she's a girl! :shock:

... but seriously Boom! Knuckles has demonstrated that he isn't completely dumb as a brick on several occasions. There was also the super intelligent buff Knuckles from the alternate dimension who was his team's leader. And even Boom! Eggman who's one of the geekiest takes on Eggman doesn't really look like a slouch.
Last edited by Mobotropolis on Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Mordum » Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:41 pm

Prove girls are even real.

I've never seen one!
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Xabin » Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:31 pm

Look, not everyone can see past stereotypes, and it's a stereotype that fit, muscular, athletic guys aren't into the more geeky stuff. Do you think people just shrugged when it was found out that Vin Diesel was an avid D&D gamer? It may be 2016, but as someone who is a major part of a fandom rife with that kind of stereotype, it's just nigh-on impossible to think of people being outside that stereotype, is all. Don't complain to me about it, it's just fact. I'm not saying it's impossible for those types of people to exist, just that most people wouldn't expect them to, especially when the franchise plays up the features that makes the stereotype incompatible with the reality.

Jeez, first being slammed for saying that some gay stereotypes are good for a visual medium if explored correctly, now being slammed for this. Is acknowledging that these stereotypes exist and that people do recognize them and adhere to them more often than not THAT much of an issue that anyone who pipes up about it is vilified? It's like... I'm acknowledging that these stereotypes exist, but that we need to face them and change them in order to improve the situation, and you guys are doing the opposite, pretending they no longer exist and everyone is capable of ignoring them for the sake of story.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby DudestofGuys » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:41 am

Xabin wrote:Do you think people just shrugged when it was found out that Vin Diesel was an avid D&D gamer?


Yes.
To people that are familiar with actors or Vin Diesel in general, it's not surprising for thespians to have nerdy hobbies. To casual moviegoers, it might be surprising more because D&D is associated with unemployed young adults and he's a successful actor. The stereotype you're talking about probably resonated with a lot of people, but obviously it didn't matter all that much since it piqued the public's interest for all of a day or two instead of becoming "that weird thing" about him.

So yeah, most people were probably confused for a minute and then shrugged and moved on with their lives instead of getting hung up on such a simple pop culture correlation. Hope this doesn't come off as rude.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Xabin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:09 pm

I'm pretty sure some people are still hung up on that, even to this day. You just don't expect that kind of thing in someone like Vin Diesel.

My point is that, to the wide majority of readers (who would be general Sonic fans, and not diehards like we are), stuff like this is odd, and some anvils need to be dropped to get the point across, which isn't a bad thing, as long as the dropper is smart about the dropping. With no context to his geekiness than "he's fascinated with mechanical things", one wouldn't look at Rotor's new bod and personality and peg him for a Comics guy, especially given his background. The fact that we don't know how he got to that state or why makes it even more frustrating. And saying "That's how he was in the old continuity, so why change it" makes no sense, since they deliberately tried to make the old continuity not change a dang bit about the new continuity, even having their regained memories of those times fade away shortly after they got them. If they were going to present Rotor as a "brand new you" in this case, they could've done a bit more to flesh him out.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Penguin God » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:26 pm

Enforcing stereotypes isn't combating them. Rotor has no need to justify his interests just because of a body shape. We're talking about a kids' comic, but even kids can figure out a buff guy can like comic books.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby The KKM » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:37 pm

Even if this were somehow a big impossible thing to happen, I'd imagine kids'd just chalk it as "fantasy" in the same way, you know, we're talking about a talking walrus.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Xabin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:56 pm

Penguin God wrote:Enforcing stereotypes isn't combating them. Rotor has no need to justify his interests just because of a body shape. We're talking about a kids' comic, but even kids can figure out a buff guy can like comic books.


Wasn't saying they should enforce the stereotypes; they could play around with it, drop hints about it. Right now, except that he was tech-savvy as a kid, we have NO idea of what he was like as a kid or growing up, so this revelation that he's more interested in video games and comics than the weapons he put on his own pride and joy is a little jarring.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Mordum » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:06 pm

Unless you have some sort of census or study or piece of tangible proof that this nebulous gaggle of people find the idea of a buff guy having geeky interests really jarring, I'm pretty sure you're just being pre-emptively worrisome over nothing.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Xabin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:53 pm

Whatever, I'm tired of arguing my point with you guys and being slammed for it.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Kureejii Lea » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:59 pm

Xabin wrote:
Penguin God wrote:Enforcing stereotypes isn't combating them. Rotor has no need to justify his interests just because of a body shape. We're talking about a kids' comic, but even kids can figure out a buff guy can like comic books.


Wasn't saying they should enforce the stereotypes; they could play around with it, drop hints about it. Right now, except that he was tech-savvy as a kid, we have NO idea of what he was like as a kid or growing up, so this revelation that he's more interested in video games and comics than the weapons he put on his own pride and joy is a little jarring.


It's not a revelation, it's a hobby. It's a character tidbit. Is it jarring that someone who spends all his time running and has stick-sized limbs eats chili dogs all the time? Do you need some extensive backstory explaining it? Would it have been jarring in the old continuity to learn that Rotor likes video games and comic books (or had any incidental hobbies really) solely because he didn't shed some of the "baby fat" growing up?

You don't "face and change" stereotypes by reinforcing them; you change them by defying them. Otherwise "acknowledging" stereotypes tends to give us tropes like having female characters constantly reminding everyone how much they love steak and hate salad and dislike chickflicks and enjoy video games and watch football and a whole bunch of other stuff that's tiresome because it's actually not that shocking or different. The reason typical stereotypes tend to be disliked, negative or otherwise, is because they cause someone to be immediately judged and defined by a single broad common factor rather than by their own merits or individuality. It's even more tedious when said stereotypes are ill informed and/or outdated; they apply to less than the majority while claiming to represent the entire group, or insult and vilify an entire group in a single stroke. In writing, it tends to come off as lazy because it depends on the reader assigning known qualities to a character from the get-go instead of developing said character as an individual.

Seriously, if your complaint is centered entirely around the idea that Rotor doesn't look like a "stereotypical" geek and therefore shouldn't have certain hobbies, then you might as well claim that Sally and Cassia shouldn't be shown as having any interest in video games either. Because girls don't play those, according to (highly inaccurate and outdated) stereotypes.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Xabin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:09 pm

Well, you can argue that Sally and Cassia have much better things to do than play video games, considering they're the leaders of their respective factions of fighters.

Again, whatever, I'm done arguing these points with you guys and being slammed for my opinions. Frankly, if this is how you guys treat a dissenting opinion, I'm glad the forum's going down. And if that sounds like I'm whining about sour grapes, GOOD.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Meliden » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:18 pm

Clove. The older sister is Clove.

I see people doing this mistake a lot so think of it like this; Cassia is similar in name to Cassius (Clay), who is a fighter and more bulky. And then over here in Britain, Clove is a brand of butter-like spread, so think of her as having a smoother, more diplomatic way of dealing with situations.
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Mordum » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:21 pm

Speaking as someone whose opinion gets regularly dismissed around here on the basis of "It's different, therefore probably wrong": you're not the victim here, Xabin. You're the only person who displays an inability to look past stereotypes, while trying to convince a mass of people who don't put stock in stereotypes that some OTHER mass of people, who cannot speak for themselves, would never be able to understand this. It's coming off like YOU don't understand it and are using others as a justification.

You're arguing that stereotypes must be defeated, but the only one who thinks in terms of stereotypes is you. You're acting like the very person you say needs educated, and nobody else in this thread has the problem you say people have...except you.

You can either take that, and really process it, and realize that the point you're making is falling on deaf ears specifically because it's counterproductive and has more to do with your displayed preconceived notions than other people's and make a conscious effort to figure out how to pick your battles for the views you want to express, or you can throw a hissy fit.

Part of me prefers the latter because it'd be really funny, but the adult in me feels the need to stress that the point you're insisting on making is counterproductive to your overall goal (and, in fact, actually strongly resembles Roland Emmerich's logic for whitewashing Stonewall, which he was rightfully called out on for how bigoted that was) and people pointing out to you that progress can happen without caricaturizing people first does not give you even the slightest place to play the victim.

Believe me. I know what it's like to have your opinion dismissed on the basis of it not being what others think should be thought. This is not one of those times. Your position is actively bigoted.

(Though, yes, stereotypes exist for a reason. But to insist someone SHOULD have them, rather than some of those traits just naturally occurring in someone, is being a bigot.)
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Re: The Thread of general Sonic-related questions

Postby Xabin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:51 pm

I'm not being bigoted, and you're twisting my words; I am touting that you guys are arguing for a way of writing that is unreasonable in the current medium, because it assumes that everyone can get past the stereotypes and won't immediately look for them in the content, and will be confused if they aren't but claim that the reasons those stereotypes exist are still there (like saying someone is gay simply because you say they like someone of the same sex, instead of showing other aspects of them that hint to them being gay). That's idealistic, but we don't live in a Star Trek utopia, here; we live in the real world, and in the real world, stereotypes are still the norm and are still widely considered by the masses.

I'm not saying that they're not horrible. What I'm saying is that, right now, our best option to change that is to take the stereotypes and use them smartly, explore them in a way that isn't offensive, and turn them on their head to make people think about what those stereotypes are and why they're bad. Take The Big Bang Theory, for instance; people tout that it's a great show, but it relies on a lot of stereotypes about geeks and plays around with those stereotypes to give us the multi-faceted characters they have, while still making sure people understand that they're geeks. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about; most readers aren't going to get that say... Boom Knux is a music lover just because we see him play the piano once, not with the way he's been depicted and designed. They need more insight into that, and there's really two ways of doing that: either provide a TON of exposition explaining why he's a music lover, or put in a few stereotypes that show that he is, and play around those in a smart way to make them work with the character in a new light. Otherwise, we get a scenario like Gay Rotor, where the hints are so obscure, people still debate over whether they were there, in the first place, and don't buy the intent.

Believe me, I don't like using stereotypes to judge a person; I don't use racial or social slurs, for that exact reason, and I detest that kind of behavior. But sadly, you have to keep your audience in mind, and usually, your audience is as dumb as you assume they are with stuff like this, so you kinda have to cater to hem in order to get the message across. But you guys think that even exploring stereotypes in a new, smart, and innovative way is wrong, that having ANYTHING to do with the stereotype is out of line, and the only way to progress through that is to excise the stereotypes altogether, pretend they don't exist and have never exist, and believe that humans are all perfect and won't resort to those stereotypes when reading your work. News flash, people: they will; it's why people still claim Rainbow Dash is a lesbian, for instance, because despite the character growth with her, people still boil them down to their core traits and make assumptions based on those, and if you don't do something to make them think differently about those core traits, by playing them up differently than expected, they won't get the idea.
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