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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby Mobotropolis » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:36 pm

Last update Ian said he's going to miss the Summer 2015 release window, but that End of Year 2015 was not completely out of the question. Apparently the bare-bones document is done but it had to be rewritten to add context to the plot points.

I say that if it isn't out by time we actually reach the plotting/writing/scripting phase we should forget about it. The DA Group mentioned earlier also seems to be hedging their bets on Lost Hedgehog Tales being released. If we run into the worse case scenario and Ian is just too busy to put the final document together (or the legal vultures descend and say its a no-no) both groups might be out of luck.

I think in the very least we should have a Plan B.

I agree that the longer we wait to start this the less likely we'll be to find hands who want to help revive the Old Continuity. It's already been two years.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby QuantamEdge » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:11 am

Mobotropolis wrote:Last update Ian said he's going to miss the Summer 2015 release window, but that End of Year 2015 was not completely out of the question. Apparently the bare-bones document is done but it had to be rewritten to add context to the plot points.

I say that if it isn't out by time we actually reach the plotting/writing/scripting phase we should forget about it. The DA Group mentioned earlier also seems to be hedging their bets on Lost Hedgehog Tales being released. If we run into the worse case scenario and Ian is just too busy to put the final document together (or the legal vultures descend and say its a no-no) both groups might be out of luck.

I think in the very least we should have a Plan B.

I agree that the longer we wait to start this the less likely we'll be to find hands who want to help revive the Old Continuity. It's already been two years.

Sadly, as much as I really want to adhere to the LHT, I'm starting to have similar thoughts. A while back there were plenty of people on forums saying how they still wish the preboot was still around. Today I hardly see any of that any more. I agree, we'll need a back up plan if LHT doesn't come out soon enough. If it comes out late this year at some point, then I think that'd be okay. By that time we'll probably have got enough recruits, made enough planning to actually begin on the project. However if it's delayed again and we have to wait until 2016, then I think we should start putting our thinking caps on.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:28 am

Personally I would prefer if we used LHT: we can always bring our own creative ideas later, after finishing LHT. And since plot will be already made we could make few issue simultaneously (artist A makes first issue, artist B already draws second, etc.)

But I guess everyone's right, we can't wait for ever. I say let's wait until New Year. If LTH won't come out (or any specific news won't come out) then we make our own thing.

But if we go with go with LTH I think we should merged with DA group. Did anyone contacted them?
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby TuxKnux » Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:28 pm

Mobotropolis wrote:Last update Ian said he's going to miss the Summer 2015 release window, but that End of Year 2015 was not completely out of the question. Apparently the bare-bones document is done but it had to be rewritten to add context to the plot points.

I say that if it isn't out by time we actually reach the plotting/writing/scripting phase we should forget about it. The DA Group mentioned earlier also seems to be hedging their bets on Lost Hedgehog Tales being released. If we run into the worse case scenario and Ian is just too busy to put the final document together (or the legal vultures descend and say its a no-no) both groups might be out of luck.

I think in the very least we should have a Plan B.

I agree that the longer we wait to start this the less likely we'll be to find hands who want to help revive the Old Continuity. It's already been two years.


Yeah, he did repeatedly fudge the release date (Summer 2014, End of Year 2014, August 2015)...
Not that I don't understand why, what with writing four comic books at once.

All right, here's my two cents and several paragraphs.

Why we should use LHT:
-It's Ian's ideas for the comic. Most of the dangling plot points Ian had planned a resolution for. That would greatly assist the writing team.
-The group could distinguish itself from being "another" fan project due to the use of "official" material.
-Ian would probably give more approval to a fan comic that would incorporate his ideas.
-You know, we could just approach Ian and ask for the plan so we could get the project started. That way, we could begin story creation before LHT is officially released.

Why we shouldn't:
-Seriously, when (if ever) will LHT get released? And what if Ian says no to the above option? That's a pretty big "if".
-Using LHT exclusively would restrict the creative team in unnecessary ways, as the story would be mostly mapped out.
-We won't have to wait!
-LHT most likely will not work with the state of the comic just prior to the Super Genesis Wave, due to the legal effects of the Penders lawsuit (e.g. Endangered Species). To avoid confusion, we would likely have to scrap some of LHT's plot.
-Whenever the Sonic comic went through a creative upheaval, the previous lead writer's ideas were discarded (Bollers, Penders). Why should this be different?

Instead of saying yes or no, I would like to do both. We could start writing the comic, then if/when LHT is released, we could incorporate various plot elements from it into our story.

So, what about me and the DeviantArt project? To put it simply, I will try to lend a writing or editorial hand any way and anywhere I can to make the Pre-Super Genesis Wave world come to life - on both this project and the one on DeviantArt, if necessary.

Honestly, I think that splintering is a bad idea. That would be a mess, to put it mildly. But I think that most of us want this project to happen enough that we are willing to sacrifice some of our personal ideas to make this project work. The one thing to watch out for is people who threaten to splinter solely so they can get their way (not that anyone here would do that, but it's possible).

MetalSkulkBane wrote:Personally I would prefer if we used LHT: we can always bring our own creative ideas later, after finishing LHT. And since plot will be already made we could make few issue simultaneously (artist A makes first issue, artist B already draws second, etc.)

But I guess everyone's right, we can't wait for ever. I say let's wait until New Year. If LTH won't come out (or any specific news won't come out) then we make our own thing.


Well, things won't be organized until Nov. at the earliest. And we could just try asking Ian for the rough draft of the project so we have something to go off of.

MetalSkulkBane wrote:
But if we go with go with LTH I think we should merged with DA group. Did anyone contacted them?


Yes, SimonSays messaged the group admins about this thread on DA. I don't think the project leader has responded yet.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby SimonSays » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:24 pm

No, I haven't gotten a response yet. But that's okay, we're still in the baby stages of things.

My problem with using creative ideas only after LHT is done is that that seems like such a LONG way out. I don't know if we could manage bringing a series that far. He said he had rough plans all the way up to 300, and we're forgetting that this would've included two full comics with Universe too. This is something we're going to discuss later, but I worry a little about LHT giving us more content than we need to create closure. I'd be happy if we could just do some stories to fill 252 - 275 and wrap up the major things from before, instead of planning to be ongoing indefinitely. My ideal AS:O only needs to quell that dissatisfaction I had when the reboot interrupted the stories I was invested in. StC:O has been running since 2003 and has put out 43 issues or so? How long would adapting LHT take?

In 12 years, are there still going to be a lot of people invested in the Preboot continuity and keeping it going when they've still got the new continuity running and enjoyable?(I mean I'm optimistic about where the comics are going to be in 12 years- I hope they're still running then, else we'll be organizing a Reboot Archie Sonic: Online too!)

Personally, seeing LHT in pictures isn't what I need. I just need to see those old plots wrapped up and given an ending. I dunno, maybe I'd feel differently about what I'd want to see after reading LHT and getting a sense of closure from that. Maybe I'm not ambitious enough. I just prefer setting goals that we know can be accomplished instead of planning something so big that it tapers off.

Maybe, if there were still interest after that, future stories could be written like graphic novel installments ala the Avatar continuations. Smaller, focused stories that use those characters but don't interweave so much that things would be left hanging if we couldn't continue past a certain installment. Completed, but some extra episodes. I'm probably getting ahead of myself though, haha. Whoops!
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby Mobotropolis » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:57 pm

Ian has a tendency to drop hints about stories years in advance so there's a likelihood that some plot points might be mentioned for the first time in LHT but not seen until much later. That might be the type of stuff we would put up to a vote as to whether or not we'd include it.

Some other stuff from the previous round might end up in that territory, too. Like -- even though the final fate of the Brotherhood was unresolved chances were we weren't going to see any resolution to that in the Road to 300. In contrast it was very likely that the Finitevus Plot was going to be brought up again in that time span since, you know, Ian said so.

Ultimately, besides the main Plot Points (Nagus had to go and the Freedom Fighters needed to be united) we might have to gauge what people are most interested in seeing and focus our efforts there. Chances are we won't be able to get to everything, but we can hit most of the sweet spots.

I think we should come to a consensus on what absolutely needs to be tackled, and then anything else that we might be able to cover if we have time, interest, and a gap in the schedule to squeeze it in.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby qmaster254 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:46 pm

I want help in the best of my capacity and do what I can to support this heartfelt effort.

My opinion would be to not use LHT. I say this because of numerous reasons, one of which is the nature of this project. This will be a creation by the fans that showcases our interpretation of the events leading up to and after the reboot. It does not have to be an extension of what will be mentioned in LHT but, instead, be something that was inspired by Ian's works.

Another reason is our ingenuity. We are not as restricted as the comic's creatives used to be. This means that we can be as creative as we want and place whatever we feel comfortable with into the project. This does not mean that we will go crazy with zany scenarios; we can be a bit more unhinged than the comic originally was and are more free to use different ideas.

I also agree with the key points that others have said before me, such as the unknown release date of LHT and the possible alterations made by Ian due to unforeseen circumstances.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby The Shadow Imperator » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:54 pm

TuxKnux wrote:-LHT most likely will not work with the state of the comic just prior to the Super Genesis Wave, due to the legal effects of the Penders lawsuit (e.g. Endangered Species). To avoid confusion, we would likely have to scrap some of LHT's plot.

We don't have to use the heavily-altered version of Endangered Species. Isn't the whole point of this fancomic to continue the universe where it was BEFORE the lawsuit ruined everything? And speaking personally, using the original E.S. would reopen old wounds that I don't particularly want to revisit.

I'm not sure how we'd handle the Rob/Bow Sparrow business if we did decide to start with issue 244, however. Unless we include flashback scenes of the Chaotix meeting Rob instead it might be best to just suck it up and use the published version for simplicity's sake. It could tie nicely into Silver's quest to return home as well. (Additionally, Bow was written far more organically into the story than the echidna purge was. For that reason I'd be okay with keeping him and Thorn.)


TuxKnux wrote:-Whenever the Sonic comic went through a creative upheaval, the previous lead writer's ideas were discarded (Bollers, Penders). Why should this be different?

Because Ian is still on the book and unlike Penders and Bollers he basically had free reign over the entire affair for many years straight, weaving all the old story lines and characters together into something truly extraordinary. That's what we want to salvage.

Otherwise, none of us would be here talking about this.


TuxKnux wrote:And we could just try asking Ian for the rough draft of the project so we have something to go off of.

Yeah, that's never going to happen. He's not releasing it "half-baked," as he put it, and wouldn't handing over the material mean he's explicitly supporting this fan project?
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby TuxKnux » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:46 pm

Mobotropolis wrote:Ian has a tendency to drop hints about stories years in advance so there's a likelihood that some plot points might be mentioned for the first time in LHT but not seen until much later. That might be the type of stuff we would put up to a vote as to whether or not we'd include it.

Some other stuff from the previous round might end up in that territory, too. Like -- even though the final fate of the Brotherhood was unresolved chances were we weren't going to see any resolution to that in the Road to 300. In contrast it was very likely that the Finitevus Plot was going to be brought up again in that time span since, you know, Ian said so.

Ultimately, besides the main Plot Points (Nagus had to go and the Freedom Fighters needed to be united) we might have to gauge what people are most interested in seeing and focus our efforts there. Chances are we won't be able to get to everything, but we can hit most of the sweet spots.

I think we should come to a consensus on what absolutely needs to be tackled, and then anything else that we might be able to cover if we have time, interest, and a gap in the schedule to squeeze it in.


Regardless of public opinion, I think the creative team should have an extensive story planned out that brings resolution to most if not all of the plot points compiled here. Once we figure out how many people will be willing to help create the project, we can pare down that framework to a desired length, while making it still possible for us to add to the story in the future.

But I'm getting off-topic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you would like to not use LHT as a general rule, but would still be open to incorporating various plot elements into it?

The Shadow Imperator wrote:
TuxKnux wrote:-Whenever the Sonic comic went through a creative upheaval, the previous lead writer's ideas were discarded (Bollers, Penders). Why should this be different?

Because Ian is still on the book and unlike Penders and Bollers he basically had free reign over the entire affair for many years straight, weaving all the old story lines and characters together into something truly extraordinary. That's what we want to salvage.

Otherwise, none of us would be here talking about this.


TuxKnux wrote:And we could just try asking Ian for the rough draft of the project so we have something to go off of.

Yeah, that's never going to happen. He's not releasing it "half-baked," as he put it, and wouldn't handing over the material mean he's explicitly supporting this fan project?


Fair enough. Just thought asking him might be worth a shot.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby Mobotropolis » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:36 pm

I'm fine with Bow and Thorn staying.

Chaotix Quest handled the swap in such a way that a reader going into it blind without having seen the previous or summaries wouldn't have been able to tell anything had gone horribly wrong. It wasn't quite the pulling-the-rug-under-us type of thing that happened during Endangered Species where several characters set up as being important to the story suddenly vanished in such a way the blind-reader would even question what happened.

and wouldn't handing over the material mean he's explicitly supporting this fan project?

Not really.

He answered this question in the Lost Hedgehog Tales thread. He can release the outline and the fans can do whatever they want with it. That isn't really an endorsement. That's fans doing what they were going to do with or without his " help ".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you would like to not use LHT as a general rule, but would still be open to incorporating various plot elements into it?

I believe -

- that we should stay as close to the source material as possible without driving ourselves bonkers and dancing around things that the Archie Creatives had to because of mandates.

- we should not be over-zealous in adding our own ideas to the source material until we have wrapped up most of the major lingering plot points -- and there are many.

- we should not hinge the project entirely on Lost Hedgehog Tales. If it comes then we'll work it into the story, but if it doesn't we'll have a Plan B that most agree on that we can fall back on.

Regardless of public opinion, I think the creative team should have an extensive story planned out that brings resolution to most if not all of the plot points compiled here.

That's what would happen in an ideal scenario.

Being the doom and gloomer I was born and raised to be, however, I must think of all scenarios and the possibility of what could happen if we are short on manpower. It would be nice to write a satisfying conclusion to every character ever but I can tell before we even begin that it isn't going to be feasible and Ian isn't going to give us all the answers.

He just had plans for the next 50 or so issues. Not forever and ever.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby The Shadow Imperator » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:43 pm

Mobotropolis wrote:
and wouldn't handing over the material mean he's explicitly supporting this fan project?

Not really.

He answered this question in the Lost Hedgehog Tales thread. He can release the outline and the fans can do whatever they want with it. That isn't really an endorsement. That's fans doing what they were going to do with or without his " help ".

When I said that I was referring to the idea of Ian releasing the rough draft outline to the Archie Sonic Online crowd exclusively. That's what I thought TuxKnux meant when he suggested it but I guess I was wrong.
Last edited by The Shadow Imperator on Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby QuantamEdge » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:07 am

In my opinion, I'd particularly want to adapt LHT since we could be considered a bit more than just another fan comic. We'd be halfway through the doorway into official canon and I know there are some who may prefer to leave ES be, but I just think we ought to finally get it done since I think the end result would be a pretty good feeling. However if we don't get LHT in time (i.e. we have the team ready and waiting in the wings) to adapt, then we may have to head straight to Mobotropolis' aforementioned Plan B and do something of our own design, then incorporate LHT into the fold.

My problem with that is that if we do join up with the DeviantArt group, then I feel we'd be entering a minefield of creative differences and bureaucracy, depending on how many writers we're going to have. Then again, maybe most of us will think on the same frequency and have little disagreement, but that offers the question how involved would the group be when such-and-such is writing a story? Will they be hands off and let the writer do what he/she has planned, or want to have more input to coordinate things better? I might be getting a bit ahead of myself, but it's a worry I've been having.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:10 am

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but judging from the comments it looks like were going to ignore LHT. And it's cool, we start faster and DA group can do the 'proper' adaptation, which saves us job for merging with them.

But that brings me to thing that worries me: DA group already has assembled 24 people team, with writers, artists, colorists and stuff. What do we have? Only 15 people commented on this topic so far, and I'm assuming not all of them want to actually contribute to AS:O.
So how many artist volunteers do we have? I can be a writer, but maybe a second or even a third. I just have a habit of coming up with ideas, then getting stuck in a point I'm not sure how to visualize and doing no progress for month or two. Granted, those were fan fics, no fan comics, but I just would trust myself to be the head writer (also, I bet some of you are more eager to take this position). I would show my "résumé", but I'm afraid most of it is in Polish.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby FritzyBeat » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:44 pm

My vote goes toward waiting for LHT. It's pretty much the whole appeal of this comic to me, getting to continue Ian's original plans. Moving forward with something brand new would be cool, but it certainly wouldn't have the same appeal as it would have as a semi-official continuing. (though, if you guys end up going forward without LHT, still feel free to write me down as an off-panel artist OUO *shot*)

For people worrying about not being able to incorporate their own creative ideas, I say, don't XP For one, there comes a lot of creativity in taking a story idea described in LHT, and then writing it out to make it actually work in comic form. And secondly, I highly doubt LHT is going to have a plan for every single issue for the next hundred issues *shot* There will likely be blank spots where Ian figured he'd fill it in when he got there, and maybe even whole SU arcs that either only have one expanded concept to go on, or no plans at all. (plus, there is no harm in creating original sub-plots running parallel to the main story).

I think there will probably be a lot of opportunity for creativity whether you take the LHT route, or the opposite~ :P
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT or No LHT?

Postby TuxKnux » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:44 pm

Mobotropolis wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you would like to not use LHT as a general rule, but would still be open to incorporating various plot elements into it?

I believe -

- that we should stay as close to the source material as possible without driving ourselves bonkers and dancing around things that the Archie Creatives had to because of mandates.

- we should not be over-zealous in adding our own ideas to the source material until we have wrapped up most of the major lingering plot points -- and there are many.

- we should not hinge the project entirely on Lost Hedgehog Tales. If it comes then we'll work it into the story, but if it doesn't we'll have a Plan B that most agree on that we can fall back on.


Okay, looks you and I are on the same page.

Mobotropolis wrote:
Regardless of public opinion, I think the creative team should have an extensive story planned out that brings resolution to most if not all of the plot points compiled here.

That's what would happen in an ideal scenario.

Being the doom and gloomer I was born and raised to be, however, I must think of all scenarios and the possibility of what could happen if we are short on manpower. It would be nice to write a satisfying conclusion to every character ever but I can tell before we even begin that it isn't going to be feasible and Ian isn't going to give us all the answers.

He just had plans for the next 50 or so issues. Not forever and ever.


Yeah, we will probably never wrap everything up. I just meant that regardless of the creative team's size, the writers could still come up with an outline that answered most of the plot points. We could then reduce that outline down until its length is tailored to the size of the creative team. Thus, not all questions would be answered, but we would have the option of adding to the story further down the line if the creative team were to grow.

The Shadow Imperator wrote:When I said that I was referring to the idea of Ian releasing the rough draft outline to the Archie Sonic Online crowd exclusively. That's what I thought TuxKnux meant when (s)he suggested it but I guess I was wrong.


Well, you were both right and wrong. (also, he) I meant that Ian could give us LHT as it currently stands so that we have something to go off of, but we wouldn't exclusively receive LHT. Ian would still finish editing it and release it to the public at some point. The reason I suggested this to begin with was so that we could have more options when it comes to writing the story.


Also, I can contribute with writing (maybe editing?), but I am not a digital artist in any sense.
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